A sense of wonder

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Konstantine, Jun 14, 2017.

  1. Konstantine

    Konstantine Grand Admiral

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    ”One thing that I'd love to see is immersion that leads to Wonder. I want to be awed and wowed about the galaxy I'm playing in. You know, at night, you can look up into the sky and see all the stars, and just be overcome with a sense of amazement and wonder of what really lies out there? This is what I would love to see in a 4X. I don't think it is possible without having some sort of GREAT dynamic generation system (not strictly procedural generation) with a lot of human resources (programmers, content designers, gfx artists) on board. Maybe someone somewhere has the magic bullet to achieve such a feat”.

    The above is an abridged quote from a friend.

    He posed an excellent question during our conversation regarding what games captured this sense of wonder and how they do it. This then is a part of my answer.

    To a degree, all games offer this, at least initially. The question in my mind is how well they do it and for how long they can sustain it

    Have you ever played Starflight? It wasn’t 4x but it re-created a sense of wonder in an age where technology was limited, I think the game probably weighed about 2MB but got around the limitations by using some good writing. It had little re-play value however.

    Then there was MoO2. The first time I played it the game did indeed offer a sense of awe and wonder, you didn’t know what you would find out there and every discovery had meaning and importance. Part of this however was when it was released. Back then 4X games were in their infancy, In other words part of what made MoO2 great was when it came out. It still managed to do well though and retained part of that sense of awe even when it was played many times by the same player. The brilliant thing in my mind is how it did this. After playing the game enough times we all knew what could be found but did not know if it would. The specials were so very limited that they were indeed special, there was no guarantee you would find natives this time just because you found them the last. In hundreds of sessions I think I was the recipient of finding a weapon and shield from a derelict exactly twice, therefore when it did happen I was thrilled and it felt new.

    Keep your specials very rare (at least some of them) and ensure that they are not always available every single session.

    Add some well written lore that can be discovered. Each piece should be about one paragraph in length, must be able to both stand alone and be part of a bigger picture. Something like this.

    Sir, our survey team on (insert planet name here) just finished their colonization feasibility study when they came across the ruins of an ancient city. All indications point to this city as being built by a pre-technological species and would normally be left to the archeologists. The strange thing is that there seem to be some references to powered flight in these ruins, something that should not be possible. It is possible that our team there may be misinterpreting the findings but we are dispatching a small scientific team for further study”.

    I know this is just a rushed example but you get the idea. This is vague, it could stand on its own or it could be expanded in multiple ways. Now, what If we had several “next” chapters to this and each game session randomly chose which one to use? We could then have an interesting background story, (or stories) appear that could change from game to game, some evolving and some not, the player would never be certain of the outcome beforehand.

    Same with artifacts ruins and specials, we could have a pool of them that also get randomly selected each session.

    Easter eggs also help. Some things should be very hard to find but their existence hinted at. What we would be trying to accomplish here is making sure that the player is never quite certain if he/she has discovered all there is to discover, the longer we sustain this the longer we maintain that sense of awe. Again, this can be accomplished by having a pool of such items and ensuring that only a small percentage is used in each session. As long as the game can randomly select these it can be a very long time before the player puts the game down.

    So while I find that all games have a sense of Awe and wonder, I also find that most lose it very fast and diminish their re-play value as a result. The key is not to rely strictly on technology to address this.

    My personal opinion though is already familiar to me, I would love to learn how any of you feel about the topic and what you think can be done to keep that “sense of wonder” alive.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2017
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  2. CrazyElf

    CrazyElf Lieutenant

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    I would say that one game that really captured a "sense of wonder" for me would be Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri.

    Several factors:
    • Very interesting backstory
    • Cinematics were very engaging for secret projects and victories
    • Every time you researched a new technology, something interesting always popped up
    • The planet felt "alive" (ex: the worms, and other natural effects)
    • Each faction had a unique background and very distinctive
    • Had to terraform in a big way
    • Social engineering played a huge role in the game
    • Distinct city management

    It was by no means perfect, as I felt the diplomacy, AI, and tactical combat need a lot of work, plus the unit design could have been better.
     
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  3. Mark

    Mark Ensign

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    Totally agree, SMAC was an incredible game. Here's to hoping that PSS (or ISG now) will do for space 4x what SMAC did for land-based 4x.
     
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  4. Edward the Hun

    Edward the Hun Moderator Lieutenant

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    Immersion is hard to pull off. It has to be deep, detailed, but also short and sweet (or at least a part of it needs to be). Having a in game encyclopedia is meaningless if you don't make me want to go look at it. Also, immersion needs to succeed without that encyclopedia. This was one of the strengths of SMAX for so many, you didn't need to read any of the expanded texts, you can even skip narrative stuff, and still get hit by a train full of immersive elements.
     
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  5. Mark

    Mark Ensign

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    Chris's OP provides some great ideas and examples about how to establish and maintain a sense of wonder in a game, but another one that I would add, in fact I think it should be at the very top of the list, is that the game should have good modding support. The more extensive the better.

    A highly moddable game can be tweaked and adjusted so that what each individual player sees as the game's pros can be maximized and the cons minimized or even eliminated entirely. The effect that this can have on maintaining a sense of freshness or wonder and extending a game's longevity WAY beyond its normal sales lifetime really cant be overstated.

    Case in point; A modder has recently released an instantly popular new mega-mod for 6 year old Skyrim called 'Bruma' which adds a completely new full-sized province to the game. An entire province containing hundreds of characters, dozens of quests, a new map and an entire full-sized city, even larger than some cities in the original game. Honestly If that sort of thing doesn't help to maintain enthusiasm and a sense of wonder for the game then nothing will.

    Its a continual source of mystery to my why only Bethesda, Paradox and a small handful of indie devs seem to understand how critically important modding support really is to the popularity and longevity of their games.
     
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  6. Konstantine

    Konstantine Grand Admiral

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    Well my friends, I just got clearance, rather than talk about the game how about I show you my last session with Pre-Alpha 7RC instead?
    (For my VIP colleagues, forgive me, you have seen this already but I am pressed for time so please don't give the ending away.)

    I began my quest for Galactic domination on a medium map, 2AI opponents and difficulty on hard. As usual I represent the Humans. Mind you these are not Captain Picard's Humans, these are my Humans (murhahaha)

    OK forgive me, I get carried away.

    I spawned in the upper left of the map and took stock of my situation. Like any good fledgling tyrant I ordered a review of my starting forces. Gazing at what appeared to be 2 space shuttles with lasers Duct taped to them, I realized these forces could only be effective if an enemy laughed himself to death. This wont do. Straight away I designed an Upgraded Frigate which featured enhanced structural integrity and auto fire lasers. Better than nothing I thought as I ordered production to begin at once.
    Over the first 100 turns I kept myself quite busy, several research projects were initiated and completed and I managed to do a fair bit of exploring using both remote exploration and a survey ship. I discovered a rogue planet, a couple of dwarf stars and also explored some ruins I found which yielded me some badly needed credits.

    My expansion during this phase was steady but not spectacular, I had two new colonies and an outpost mining some dark matter when contact was made with the Aliens... both of them. My situation seemed not ideal as I already felt boxed in by the Dragul (in green) and threatened by the Moltar (in red) via a wormhole at my outpost on ZigZag which connected to Moltar space.
    1Contact-1.jpg

    Seven turns later the Moltar attacked at ZigZag, it was already obvious to me that this system was the key to my survival. ZigZag was directly threatened by the Dragul who had me contained tightly to the south and by the Moltar because the wormhole made the system "in range" for them. I concentrated my entire fleet (4 Frigates) and the 2 attacking Moltar ships withdrew from combat. Nice to see the AI knows how to pick and choose when to fight but it left me in a bad spot.
    My colonies were now already on a war footing and my first Destroyer was under construction along with a new (missile) class of Frigate. As long as the Dragul did not attack me too, I felt reasonably sure I could hold my defensive position. The problem was I wasn't too sure about how to break out of this
    On the civilian front I managed to erect another outpost so I could extract some Helium 3, I needed this resource badly as it was my ticket to researching Fusion Drive, a substantial improvement over my horse and buggy drive currently in use.
    2War.jpg

    I spent the next 28 turns trying to build up. On the civilian front, exploration continues and my research pattern is turning out a bit different (and more crucial) than usual due to my situation. A colony ship is also nearly complete and I intend to settle a barren Ultra rich world close to my core worlds. That’s another thing by the way, I need to expand but can’t go deep as I have to defend any new colony.Unfortunately for me The Moltar and Dragul are not facing the same constraints, I am clearly in a defensive posture.

    My military has just beaten another Moltar raid at ZigZag and now features a few Destroyers mixed in with my other forces. The Dragul are really making me nervous at this point as well as they have me boxed tight to the south, this can’t end well.
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    The suspense was killing me and I couldn’t take it anymore, I attacked the Dragul 19 turns later and destroyed their outpost at Dayrinni which gave me some breathing room. The Moltar raids on ZigZag are getting more intense now and the opposing forces larger. My new colony at Diph is operational and I am building some domes for the citizens there as they are quite unhappy, heck that's an understatement, they are ready to rebel. Research is heavily focused on my military with a two front war in place and exploration is continuing. I’m locked into conflict and it looks like it will be a long war, two more Destroyers are nearly complete and I've scrapped some obsolete ships.
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    Both wars are raging. I’ve struck at the Dragul and taken their colony at Cluegi, they suffered some losses before retreating their forces. The Moltar continue with their raids and I can’t stop them yet. I find myself wishing that I had interdictor cruisers at my disposal as the Moltar keep retreating from battle only to return later with stronger forces. I would be far ahead now but because of the Moltar I am forced to garrison ZigZag so heavily that I don’t have enough forces left over to really hurt the Dragul. I'm in a war of attrition and the clock is the worst foe of all

    Research is now shifting towards ecological improvements so I can boost the production on my too few colonies. My first Cruiser ship is under construction. The construction of a new class Destroyer is almost complete and exploration continues to be conservative due to the strategic situation.
    5invasion.jpg

    The Moltar are attacking and it's no joke.
    The intensity is amazing now, the AI is handling itself particularly well. I destroyed the Dragul colony at Vulklaums but you can see that the AI continues to expand itself elsewhere despite my presence. The Moltar are just getting ridiculous, look at how that AI is building up forces.

    For myself, I’ve scrapped all Frigates and now field only Destroyers, Destroyers+ (upgraded design) and Cruisers. Ecological improvement is underway at Cluegi and exploration has become routine but secondary. This session looks to be far from over and defeat is just as possible as victory.
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    Last edited: Jul 14, 2017
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  7. Konstantine

    Konstantine Grand Admiral

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    “Take advantage of the enemy's unpreparedness; travel by unexpected routes and strike him where he has taken no precautions”.

    Sun Tzu

    The wormhole! Of course, why didn’t I see it sooner? perhaps fighting so intensely kept me from it.

    Many 4x games are won by following an all too familiar recipe, you expand, build up your industry, tech and military before you bludgeon your way to victory. This approach is certainly adequate but nowhere near as satisfying as victory against the odds. Imagine finding yourself in a situation where victory is far from certain and a protracted stalemate only puts you in a worse position. Then you notice something, it’s been there all along but suddenly a desperate plan comes together and you gather your barely sufficient forces, it could just work. This type of victory is far sweeter for me.

    The Moltar attacked ZigZag as expected and I was there to give battle. My slightly inferior forces managed to get off an opening salvo and launched missiles. The Moltar immediately withdrew. I had seen this movie before and knew they would just return even stronger. This was frustrating and I knew I had to stop them before they overwhelmed me. But this time I was actually hoping they would withdraw.

    As the Moltar withdrew to their base at Ophi I entered the wormhole at ZigZag and arrived in Moltar space several turns ahead of them with most of my fleet. One turn later I had a forward base at Ra as I had built an outpost ship for this exact purpose. With most (but certainly not all) of the Moltar forces still en route (and slowed by passing through a nebula) I split my fleet and decimated the Moltar colonies.

    Take a look now, that same wormhole that caused me so much grief at ZigZag was turned into my advantage. With the loss of their colonies most of the Moltar fleet vanished due to lack of support, only the Battleship and a single destroyer are on my scanners now.

    This AI tormented me via that wormhole and held me in check throughout the game, I cannot tell you how awesome it felt to turn the tables on it and beat it with that same wormhole or the satisfaction of knowing it took actual skill to beat it combined with a bit of luck.

    Every player has their own styles gents, I respect that and speak only for myself.

    I’m a veteran player and have been doing this since strategy games were cardboard maps and tiles as counters, the fact that a pre-alpha tested me to this level has left me impressed. The fact that I could win by finesse as well as brute force is downright thrilling.

    7Sun Tzu.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2017

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