ISG Dev Diary #2: Ship Design

Discussion in 'Development News' started by MalRey, Nov 28, 2016.

  1. MalRey

    MalRey Developer Lieutenant

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    Hi everyone! This week we propose to discuss our solution for the ship design! :)

    Motivation and Rationale

    We believe ship design is one of the great and brilliant features of Master of Orion 2, so we saw no need in innovating much here. The basic concepts and mechanics were kept, now with just a few tweaks, twists and different looks.

    Regarding the number of available designs to build, one could think of going down the "unlimited number of designs allowed" path but we favored a more constrained approach, because that fits better with our vision to give more importance, and more character to the ships in our game.

    So, we're going with a "less but more important ships" strategy. There will be five designs available to build with no constraints regarding ship classes (you can have 5 frigate designs if you want), just like in MoO2, but we'll allow for an extra design slot to become available later on after researching a mid-late game tech. Five buildable designs +1 (unlocked by tech) is where we stand, but we're open to increase the number a little bit (more default design slots or more unlocks) if we see that could work better as the playtesting moves forward.

    Therefore, we propose a similar solution for the ship design as the one found in MoO2, now with a different and more appealing UI.

    The Ships

    There are six types of ships, or ship classes. From smaller to bigger: Frigate, Destroyer, Cruiser, Battleship, Titan and a "Doom Star" class of ship.

    Each ship class will have a base cost and allow for a certain amount of space to be filled up with various components. Some of these components will be automatically set according to the latest technology while others will be chosen by the player.

    [​IMG]

    The Components

    Each component has a cost and occupies a specific amount of the available space.

    1. Weapons
    We have three types of weapons in the game: Kinetics, Beams and Missiles. Details about each type will be addressed in the Space Combat dev diary.
    The player can go with up to eight different weapon systems. Each of these weapon systems can be comprised of several weapon units. The ship can fire all weapon systems at once or individually at a specific target, for which all weapons comprising that system will all fire, just like in MoO2. Then, there are several modifications available for each weapon system like the firing arc, auto-fire, heavy mount, point defense, the number of missiles, and others. On top of this, we're planning to make weapons more than just a better-weapons equals more-damage type of thing. So, new weapons may not be the most destructive necessarily, and they may have other ways to compensate for that with some special ability (ala MoO2's Neutron Blaster that kills marines). Feel free to suggest some more modifications and weapon special abilities you'd like to see in the game for each type of weapon, old or new :)

    2. Engine
    The ships' engine is always the most recent researched one in the empire. We thought of allowing the player to choose the engine, like in MoO1, for example, but we finally opted to always go with the latest engine for all ships for the sake of simplifying fleet movement in the starmap, which is also the MoO2 approach.

    3. Shields
    Shields are the first line of defense of a ship. The player can choose a particular shield from all the ones researched. The option of going with no shields is also available for a "less protection more fire power approach", if desired.
    The player can decide to install a maximum of four shield facings for full 360º protection. Stats for shield strength, blocking points and recharge rate will be presented.

    4. Armor
    Armor is the second line of defense of the ship. As with the engine's case, the game automatically updates all designs with the latest armor, as in MoO2. Therefore, the armor in a design is always the latest and cannot be changed.
    This is our starting point. However, we are still evaluating if allowing the player to choose the armor (as in MoO1) would be preferable, to cut costs and improve the weapons, for example. We think that has the potential to overpower a "less protection more fire power" approach even more if allied with a "no shields" or low shields choice as it could give the attacker too much firepower from the get go, compounded if it strikes first. We'll see. Let us know your thoughts on this one.

    5. Special Systems
    Special systems are optional choices that the player can install in the ships to give them special abilities, or modifiers. Preferably, special systems should unlock new functionalities, something that the ship is allowed to do extra on top of regular weapons, shields, armor and engines. As an example, there will be fighter and bomber bays. Feel free to suggest which kinds of special systems you would like to see in the game! :)

    The View

    The player can choose from three different ship visuals for each of the ship classes, for each race family of ship models. In the image below, you can see our initial effort for the different ships belonging to three different races, which is the amount we're currently testing in our game. So, these ships are the ones we're currently using for ship design and space combat purposes.

    [​IMG]

    Yes, ships will be in 3D, but we're working hard to provide you the 2D gameplay feel of MoO2. And you may ask: "So, why didn't you made the combat entirely in 2D in the first place?". Along with the fact that 3D is more eye appealing (at least for us, of course), we have some wild ideas to take advantage of the 3D during combat, this without removing the original solution's feel. We will address this more in detail in the space combat dev diary.

    Currently, we're placing 3D models of each weapon and special system on the ship in a semi-randomized way, according with the weapons and specials' configuration. We think this will give more character and uniqueness to each ship, especially regarding the "special 3D ideas for the combat system" concept referenced above, which is currently under evaluation.

    These are internal "lego-made" models (doom star still not there..), so if you think they are ugly :confused: please support us with some of your knowledge regarding 3D modeling. If you'd like to work with us in this endeavor please contact us (you have the "Contact" link below in the footer to the right)!

    Now please let us know your impressions, and what your ideas and suggestions for improvement may be :D
     
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  2. Konstantine

    Konstantine Grand Admiral

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    This is really good stuff on first impression.
    The auto update is ok and certainly lightens the players management load.
    I hope we see most of the specials that were available in Moo2 such as extended range, hard shields, etc and some new stuff.

    Really curious about the "wild ideas" you guys have, curious indeed.
     
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  3. Bigmo

    Bigmo Ensign

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    Looks awesome! Unless it is causing you guys some real coding issues, can you please not limit the number of special system aside from the ship "weight" capacity. I found it annoying late in the game, not to be able to put all of the special gadgets I "borrowed" from my "friends"...
     
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  4. Bigmo

    Bigmo Ensign

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    Here are some of my suggestions toward armor:
    • Armor
      • Make it a subsystem with it's own specific number of slots (ship dependent?) were each slots would be a layer that could a combination of any or multiples of
        • Reflective material (anti-beam)
        • Reactive armor (missile mitigation)
        • Kinetic absorption armor (projectile mitigation)
        • Healing armor
        • Dumb armor (just plain metal X)
        • etc..
      • Each layers
        • Adds weight
        • Adds Cost
        • Movement and rotation penalty
      • There could be techs that allows
        • More Layers (Heavy Armor)
        • Provide multiple Bonuses on same layer (Hybrid armor, Weaved material, Nano-Glazing)
        • Cost and weight reduction
        • Special layers (Nano manufacturing layer for armor replacement)
        • Multiply or provide special effects for certain armor layer order
    • Internal Structure
      • You could do the same for the internal structure (yellow bar in MOO2 if i remember correctly). Here are some suggestions
        • Internal reinforcement of different level (heavy, medium, light)
        • Compartments special (Harder to hit several system at once)
        • Internal security (harder to board)
        • Internal scramblers (harder to lock on specific sections)
        • internal fields
      • Section specific targeting
        • Having better scanning equipment could allow to better target specific systems of the ships in order to provide a more strategic approach to combat instead of having just some X% chance of hitting system Y.
      • Malus associated with more internal stuff
        • Aside from space, maybe some sort of power drain associated by device
        • That way it would add yet another strategic layer, permitting or forcing redirection of power towards specific subsystems depending on situation
        • It would be possible to add more power substation that would augment or diminush available power with penalties associated to specific tech
          • nuclear power plants could explode or leak radiation (killing crew) when damaged
          • Some other could short systems, create EMPs, black holes, etc...
      • Crew
        • Destroying internal structure could potentially kill the crew
        • When crew dies, overall XP for the crew gets lower thus reducing efficiency.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2016
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  5. Matthias

    Matthias Ensign

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    I loved the way the system worked in MoO2, so for me, as close as possible to that... Dev entry sounds very promising! Beware the pitfalls of overcomplicating things with this very central part of the MoO2 experience.

    In MoO2, I used the different ship views/images (and ship names) to discern ship generations, so I always knew by just looking at a ship if it still needed updates to include the newest weapons etc. So three different views/images is probably the minimal number necessary to make this system work, but more could not hurt (of course, I understand that designing these 3d models is a lot of work).

    If possible, try to avoid game-breaking combinations like time-warp facilitator and phasing cloak. Where's the fun if you have a (nearly) invincible ship?

    Curious about the 3D special... Some thing like the Futurama maneuvre? ;)
     
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  6. Bigmo

    Bigmo Ensign

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    Here is the first of several suggestion list. First armor techs or subsystem (sorry for the repeat with previous post but I will avoid repeating tech from MOO1,2,3):
    • Monocrystalline armor
    • Nano weaving
    • Reflective armor layer
    • Reactive armor layer
    • Regenerative ablative armor
    • Kinetic dispersion polymer
    • Electro-magnetic radiation reflector coils
    • EMP absorption coil
    • Composite laminate
    • Reflex armor
    • Bioplas
    • Semi-organic regenerative layer
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2016
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  7. Bigmo

    Bigmo Ensign

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    Suggestions for Shield and shielding technologies (which could be added as subslots of shields?)
    • Deflector field (deflect missile and projectile, lower damage?)
    • EMP shielding (protects against EMP based weapons such as ion cannon)
    • Kinetic shield (lower kinetic weapon damage)
    • Radiation shield (lower radiation damage to crew)
    • Electromagnetic dispersion field (lowers scanning lock)
    • Flash shield (confuses missiles and fighters with wide spectrum EMP, could be replacement for EMP defenses in MOO2)
    • Swarm Shield (nano bots that "eats" incoming missile, projectile, fighters) no effect on energy weapon)
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2016
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  8. aReclusiveMind

    aReclusiveMind Developer Grand Admiral

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    Here are some ideas for special systems I thought might fit in:

    - Stealth modules

    - Speed boosting module to allow for very fast and agile ships beyond what engines can provide at the cost of additional space usage.

    - Boarding modules and tractor beams for "melee" combat in space. Potentially it could prevent a ship from moving at first, but still allow it to fire, and then over time as the boarders take the ship and its bridge it could also prevent firing. These could also be placed as defense against boarding.

    - Gravity module or some other emitter which prevents nearby ships from turning quickly to respond to incoming threats. This could be combined with sending smaller ships to the sides/back of the slowed enemy to fire at their weaker sections.

    - A short range teleporter module that can teleport a ship within a certain distance (perhaps on a cooldown or at a high cost to prevent abuse).

    - A "mirror image" distortion module which can make a ship harder to hit by reducing enemy accuracy against it.

    - Repair nano bots.

    - I'd also recommend some other devices (alongside nano bots) which enable support ships to be useful. Essentially devices which buff nearby ships in some way and which are significant enough to warrant putting minimal weapons on the ship itself. I'll need to think more on this to come up with firm ideas.
     
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  9. Bigmo

    Bigmo Ensign

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    Suggestions for Sensors and Computers
    • Generalities
      • As suggested for Shielding and armor, having a "main" device with several subsystem slots, the number of which would be determined be ship class and tech level and availability.
      • Spying could provide blueprints that would increase "to hit" chances when it comes to specific targeting of subsystem by allowing to "eyeball" a section of a ship with projectile and energy weapons.
      • Later on, scanning technologies, when not hindered by jamming devices, could provide on the fly information on the "location" of subsystem X on the ennemy spaceship
    • Sensor
      • Oracle array
        • predicts projectile weapon trajectory both defensively and offensively, to hit bonus, defense bonus
        • Requires a computer slots as well
      • EM profiler
        • Detects power distribution patterns
        • At lower level, it gives a general power level (barely a ping that says it's there), then as tech progress it gives a more accurate picture, by giving visual cues to where power is higher (ie power plants) then at the highest level, it allows a clear picture of all the distribution nodes allowing surgical strikes against certain systems
      • Optical scanners
        • Allows guns to "eyeball" specific area of a ship
        • Higher tech level provides, better view (thermal, xray, infrared, hyperspectral, etc...)
      • Gravity wave detector or grav scanner
        • Provides some degree of sensing stuff at a distance or hard to see objects
      • ABC scanner (atomic bacteriological chemical)
        • Detects payload and ammunition location, quantity and quality
      • RADAR, LIDAR, etc
        • Helps accurately locate enemy and incoming ordinance
    • Computers
      • Computers in general
        • Reuse of computers in MOO2 could be spiced up with algorithm and add-ons. They could follow one of those two folllowing design philosophies
          • Distributed networked computing
            • Takes a little space for networking equipment
            • Computer is harder to destroy since each computer slots can be a mini-computer. Destroying 1 lowers computer bonuses by X percent.
          • Central Computer
            • More powerful and efficient (ie less powerdrain)
      • Most scanning equipement in older MOO could be integrated in this design
        • For example, megafluxers would allow more computers slots as well as more space
    • Firing solution algorithm
      • Increases chance of hiting a target for missile and torpedoes by calculating trajectories and probabilites
      • Computer slot
    • Unity Algorithm
      • Increases to hit chances by linking the different sensors into a coherent flow of information to the gunners
      • Computer slot
    • AI add-on
      • Provides various bonuses at various tech level from dumb automation to total control of ship
      • Can take over at reduced efficiency when crew is dead
      • Can be hacked (and deactivated with a killswitch in case of hacking)
    • Evasion Algorithm
      • Helps escape incoming fire
     
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  10. Matthias

    Matthias Ensign

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    One more thing: give us the possibility to auto-resolve battles at any time during the battle (i.e., not only "auto-battle", but resolve and end the battle screen immediately without showing all the remaining moves to resolution).
     
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  11. Konstantine

    Konstantine Grand Admiral

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    A request more than a suggestion
    Anything that you can do to help smaller ship classes retain their relevance throughout the game would be most appreciated.
    I find it very un-realistic to see fleets consisting only of titans in the late game, there is a reason why wet navies create and deploy numerous classes of ships in real life.
    Perhaps you could create some specials that are optimal for smaller ship classes (FFs and DDs) such as ECM and ECCM suites.
     
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  12. MalRey

    MalRey Developer Lieutenant

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    Thank you all for the requests and comments so far. We're working in the community feedback list to reflect somehow some of these great ideas. Keep rolling in !! :D
     
  13. Thrangar

    Thrangar Ensign

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    Late game jump gates could be limited to or sized to restrict Titan sized ships
     
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  14. gja102

    gja102 Cadet

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    I really like the restriction on design spam, and the auto-upgrading features, that should reduce micromanagement headaches and encourage some interesting strategic design choices. I do wonder that players might become frustrated if they use their whole design allocation to fight a certain style of enemy, and then they are left unable to re-tool to adapt to any new threats or techs? Unless I've misunderstood how it will work? You might have to 'tech gate' a few more of the design slots, so they appear over time, to help players avoid the temptation of using them all at once.

    In terms of modules to use, I have few suggestions:
    Area-of-effect weapons - these are always fun.
    Sentient Ship - representing an advanced AI, a living ship, or simply a space monster, the Sentient Ship has enhanced performance but won't take kindly to risking it's life - a 10% chance of a negative effect, such as a temporary retreat, if it suffers hull damage.
    Adaptive Camouflage - if the battlemap has some random 'terrain' obstacles for variety, such as asteroids, debris, or civilian shipping - allows the ship to disguise itself as one of these at the deployment phase. Perfect for ambush tactics.
    Docking Claws - for the Space Hulk fans. Like assault shuttles, but less subtle. Think of them as low-tech, point-blank tractor beams that do hull damage.


    I think it would be simpler to have armor upgrade in the same way as all other weapons as modules, but allow the player to select "light" or "heavy" flavors for the design. So you would still have the same strategic considerations you describe, but you'd be safe in the knowledge that your lightly-armored ships would always be using the 'best' armor, just less of it.
     
  15. IvanK

    IvanK Lieutenant

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    I wish MoO 2 had that. I support this idea if user interface can communicate it effectively.

    It was more balance issue then design, in MoO 2 laser cannon was the king for a long time. When you take into account weapon modifiers then laser's effective damage vs unshielded (24 + warp core breach chance) is about the same as fusion beam's (24), greater then neutron blaster's (12) and slightly lower then graviton beam's (29). "Only" reason to use higher tech beam is to overcome shield damage reduction and I had a lot of games where impossible AI simply forgoes shield. Well, AI is not very bright but I still feel that progression curve could be better. Instead of upping base damage (which would affect shield efficiency) it can be remedied with weapon modifications.

    For instance:
    • Dual pod form MoO 3 :) which simply makes weapon fire twice. Poor mans version of autofire.
    • Streaming / phased / chronosomething which makes beam strike multiple ships in the same line. Would be a bit of situational damage multiplier which would also make players think how to position their ships and maybe make them put more space between them.
    • Weakening which transmutes targets armor into useless material making consequential attacks more damaging. Something in line with neutron stream projector from MoO 1.
    Some ideas for special weapons/equipment:
    • Gyrostabilizer with temporary turning cost debuff. In MoO 2 it deals some damage and turns ship in random direction it would be cool if it also made it harder for target to correct it's course.
    • Stasis field nerfed. A ship can be held only few turns in a stasis field and then it's immune to stasis for few turns.
    • Wide area stasis field which turns empty space into a barrier. Like Sentry's force field ability in Starcraft 2.
    • EMP blast which acts like temporary technology nullifer from MoO 1. Maybe as conical area of effect attack which can knockout missile guidance system, effectively turning it to dumb fire.
    • Mirror image like from one ST:Voyager episode or as High Templar's hallucination ability from Starcraft 1 (fake unit which deals no damage but can fool enemies to waste time on it).
     
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  16. Bigmo

    Bigmo Ensign

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    Suggestions for weapons​
    • Projectiles weapons mods
      • Explosive rounds (Splash internal damage)
      • Armor penetration rounds
      • Shield penetration rounds
      • EMP rounds (chances of temporary or permanent disabling internal systems)
      • Radio-actives round (kill marines)
      • Chemical or biological round with different effects (death, mind control, incapacitation, etc...)
    • Limit the ammunition quantity for projectile weapon and subject them to supply restrictions (see missiles below)
    • Make the order implementation of mods important
      • If one puts in order armor, explosive and radio-active mods, the bullet would in order penetrate the armor, explodes creating both damage to internals and crew
      • Future techs could make it possible to change rounds mods on the fly if one combination does not pan out against an unknown ennemy
    • Different kind of damage could be damaging to certain races, not to others
      • EMP based weapon could be damaging to Cyber races
      • Radiation based weapon could be damaging to Biological based lifeform
      • Crystalline based lifeform would not be affected by anything short of direct attacks
    • Energy based weapons mods
      • Continous mods should allow the beam to come through the target and hit the one behind at a reduce power level.
      • As mentionned above, area of effect is always fun, therefore some mod that allows splash damage.
    • Missile VS torpedoes
      • The main difference would be that as previous games, torpedoes would fire every other turns
      • Missiles would have of course a limited amount of ammunition, but with a twist
        • At first they should not be replenishable after combat except at a friendly planet or facilities
        • Support ships could become available later with onboard fabricator to replenish ammunitions in battle or in the field as long as raw material (asteroids, planets with certain chemicals or radioactives, destroyed ship hulls) are available
        • Later on, larger ship could hold such fabricators.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2016
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  17. Matthias

    Matthias Ensign

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    I agree - I think the reason the ships only get bigger during a MoO2 campaign is that eventually, punch is all that counts, and bigger ships bring more punch for the buck (e.g., firepower vs. command points and also survivability of battles). So you always go as big as you can afford. I sometimes tried to find specialized roles for small ships (like missile defense or boarding parties), but their low survivability in an advanced battle usually killed these good intentions (its usually better to have big ships with specialized roles, if any). The only limited use they have now is that - during a certain era - they make quite attractive (because weak) targets for enemy missiles while your capital ships edge closer towards the starbase/planet.

    I think one possibility to remediate that is to give the small ship classes an advantage that ties in logically with their smaller size. I could imagine that if small ships were faster (with the same propulsion technology) not only on the battlefield but also on the strategic map, and perhaps also had a larger reach (with the same fuel cell technology), they would find their strategic uses. They could be used for scouting and research, for fast assault operations, to protect convoys building outposts to allow your capital ships to reach the enemy's core worlds, etc. So perhaps this is worth considering as an idea.
     
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  18. IvanK

    IvanK Lieutenant

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    The contradiction in MoO 2 was that bigger ships were effectively easier to maintain than smaller ones. They cost less command points per cannon and refitting few bigger ones was more efficient then many small ones because building queue was limited to consuming 1 item per turn. Which also bring in another phenomena, if it you can build a destroyer in 1 turn then you'd have no need for frigates. Similarly if you have a colony which can build a battleship in 3-4 turns and you are in no dire situation then you'd build battleships, not cruisers and smaller.

    I agree that there should be bigger speed difference between ship sizes. If done well then bigger ships would be forced to invest in bigger mounts and wider arcs in order to keep targets in range while smaller ones would be free to use mount with more firepower per space. In MoO 2 hull sizes did have different base combat speed but math under the hood (base speed + drive technology - hull penalty) made it insufficiently noticeable. Difference of 1 speed unit was very small in the first place and when you got some more advanced drive technologies then relative difference would be practically gone too, both ships would close in on target in 2 combat turns. If the hull size was a multiplier instead of addend in the formula then relative differences would remain until late game.
     
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  19. Bigmo

    Bigmo Ensign

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    I agree with you guys. One way of dealing with this could be to have the ability to create a fleet from several of the smaller ships or attach small ships to a bigger one as support and have them acting as more or less 1 ship.
    A swarm of small ships would be more difficult to kill and with the right management tools (order replacement button, fleet template, fleet formation, automated battle orders, etc) it could be fun to do! Races such as Klackons or Meklar, would probably get some bonus to that end. There could also be some tech providing meaningful management tools or bonuses toward that end.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2016
  20. Finestra

    Finestra Lieutenant

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    Awesome design. It looks good so far
     
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