Minor Races

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Konstantine, Feb 21, 2017.

  1. Konstantine

    Konstantine Grand Admiral

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    Minor races in Moo2 were very basic, they consisted of finding the occasional primitive natives which were only good for farming and the occasional splinter colony which does not exactly count as a minor race. Oddly enough, Microprose released BotF shortly after Moo2 and the minor races there were one of the main attractions of the game.

    As I recently read the review of Stars in Shadow posted by vivisector9999 my attention was caught by this one statement he made. “There are also at least a dozen minor races (which ranged from useful to very annoying). That number is paltry compared to Stellaris, I know, but these minor races had the feeling of being handcrafted, rather than random assemblages of portraits and stats.”

    This more than anything gave me motivation and the possible blueprint for how minor races can be included in project Space Sector, either on release or as a future DLC

    So let me then offer some thoughts as a starting point and hopefully get some feedback from anyone that finds the subject interesting.

    Let me start with the number of minor races.

    In Project Space Sector it is almost a must to keep the number of races small. You have a large map that is only around 140 systems and as such you really do not have a lot of extra room once you remove the starting locations of the main factions and systems that already contain some sort of special.

    With a limited number of minor races I think it would be a benefit to follow the “hand crafted” approach that vivisector9999 referenced. These minor races should each be unique and interesting, quality and not quantity.

    One aspect that should follow closely to BotF is how these minor races can act as both a plus for the player or act as an obstacle.

    In BotF, you could conquer a minor race. The benefit was that you gained a valuable world quickly but at the cost of that race being subjugated which meant that that you suffered a permanent loss of capability from the planet conquered. (Subjugated races produced slower, researched slower and threatened to revolt constantly)

    If you did not outright conquer a minor race you could begin a string of diplomatic actions that would befriend the minors with the goal being their eventual joining your empire of their own free will. This took much longer to accomplish but the reward was that you gained full production and research from the minor.

    I like that trade off. Get them now but at reduced effectiveness or get them much later at full effectiveness. That was a choice that was always fun to consider and be presented with

    Another aspect that I like in BotFs handling of the subject was that a minor race was not a guaranteed plus for the player. In fact, many times the minors acted as a speed bump to the players development, particularly where the minor was powerful and viewed the player poorly. In this case you could not attack them quickly and befriending them was a huge effort that took time. Sometimes, the minors viewed the player so poorly that they declared war on the player! When it came to a minor like the Sheliak for example, this was a real threat, not a cake walk.

    In my opinion, minor races similar to the way they were included in BotF, could be a huge asset to Project Space Sector.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2017
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  2. Mark

    Mark Ensign

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    Totally agree that minor races could be a huge asset, they most certainly were in BOTF. But although hand crafting them has the appeal of making them memorable and interesting it also had the following drawbacks, at least in BOTF...

    1/ They got old really fast, they became extremely predictable and therefore painfully obvious as to whether you should ignore, conquer or buy them.
    2/ Certain races were no-brainers (eg. the Vulcans) that were so important and powerful that the moment you saw them, your entire economy was always 100% directed towards acquiring them ASAP and when you got them - especially if you got them early - you had basically won the game.

    I think we're at the stage now when procedurally generating minor races, if done properly, would effectively erase the above drawbacks while still keeping them interesting. Keeping them interesting is the tough part, but I think a large pool of advantages, disadvantages, backstory and quirks, selected semi-randomly (with rules to make sure that ridiculous combinations dont occur) could work.
     
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  3. Konstantine

    Konstantine Grand Admiral

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    I recall one game where I was playing as the Romulans and I got into what seemed like a bidding war with the Federation over the Vulcans. The Feds won and shortly afterwards declared war on me. They used the Vulcan ships as a spearhead but I was able to concentrate my forces and wiped out those ships, It was very satisfying.

    Unfortunately this was rather the exception than the rule as you are entirely correct about how the minors in BotF became predictable. One could however use similar type races here provided that the reaction they have to players is variable. Their traits would stay pretty much the same but it would make their behaviour far more difficult to predict.

    Do you think this would work as a starting point?
     
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  4. Vivisector 9999

    Vivisector 9999 Moderator Ensign

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    Thanks for the mention, ChrisKonstantine.

    I should point out that the minor races of Stars In Shadow, while neat for the first few games, also fell prey to the aforementioned predictability. ("Oh dammit, it's that useless ooze species again. You can't even enslave these assholes...") It would have added to the game if they were more dynamic and variable in their role.
     
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  5. Mark

    Mark Ensign

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    Varying their relationships would definitely be a good start. Basically any choice in a strategy game which absolutely always boils down to only one obvious and logical answer is not very good game design. BOTF minor races - while being a great idea - totally ran afoul of this trap to the point that a huge part of the game just became about quickly farming selected minor races for the win. So anything that can be done to make the choice of exactly how to deal with them not so obvious and predictable would be a good move.
     
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  6. Konstantine

    Konstantine Grand Admiral

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    So basically,
    We could hand craft their attributes and lore but make their attitude dynamic and variable to get a better result? Might mot totally eliminate the issue but you can blend Vivisector 9999s handcrafted approach to less predictability.
     
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  7. Possibility

    Possibility Ensign

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    Yes, this.
     
  8. CrazyElf

    CrazyElf Lieutenant

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    Has anyone seen the minor races in Gal Civ 3?

    That might be an interesting template for PSS.
     
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  9. Ashbery76

    Ashbery76 Ensign

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    Here's how I see it.

    BOTF minor race poiltical system with stellaris pre sentient uplifting with SIS unique traits.
     

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