Overall I am quite pleased with Space Culture as a whole, but there are a few small things that I'd like to see tweaked. First a quick note. Each tree has one "must have" unlock in the middle that allows you to proceed to the next layer of culture choices. These must have unlocks should be highly representative of the tree's concept as a whole just as the last entry should. ADVENTURE TREE Tier 3 - "Space Socialites" +100% BC FROM TOURISM - This feels very well suited to the adventure tree. I am a big fan of this ability as it promotes a often ignored source of income and makes thematic sense with both the name of the unlock and the name of the tree. I'd leave this as-is! +2 BC FROM TAXES IN EVERY COLONY - This tech feels tacked on and out of place in the adventure category. I am not a fan of it as this sort of direct income feels like it belongs (and actually already exists) in the WEALTH tree. I'd remove this! I would propose we remove +2 BC FROM TAXES IN EVERY COLONY portion of this skill and replace it with something more thematic. Here are some options in order of my favorites, with either of the top two being my favorite. +1 SCP PER POP IN EMPIRE- This would make thematic sense as the adventurous socialites are sure to spread their culture to all they meet. +25% POP GROWTH ON EMPIRE - What are these crazy socialites up to after a night out at the Galactic Amusement Park? Well they're getting busy making new colonists of course! This effect is identical to the Synthetic Food technology, so I don't think it is overpowered even when stacked. +1 TO TRAVEL SPEED - A lesser version of the STELLAR NAVIGATORS choice to be sure, but a nice benefit of these socialites just needing to get around as quick as they can. COLONIES START WITH 1 ADDITIONAL POP A less conventional choice as a lesser version of the SPACE FERVOR choice, but without the free ship. It would allow adventurous societies to potentially start with up to 3 POPs in a new colony if they also chose SPACE FERVOR. It's an exciting option, but potentially overpowered. I'm not sure. WEALTH Perhaps it's just me, but I dislike that the "must have" unlock for WEALTH is placed in tier 4 instead of tier 3 as it is in ADVENTURE and KNOWLEDGE. It just doesn't look clean and uniform. I also prefer how the other "must have" choices are half way down the list with the final "must have" at the bottom. I'd like to rearrange the unlocks in Wealth as follows. Tier 1 - same Tier 2 - Astro Mining Guild / Space Privateers Tier 3 - Megacorporations Tier 4 - Master Geologists / Aggressive Terraforming Tier 5 - same Tier 6 - same This places Megacorporations parallel to Space Socialites and Theory of Everything. I also feel Astro Mining Guild and Space Privateers are more useful that Master Geologists and Aggressive Terraforming early on in the game. This is ESPECIALLY true now that production mining provides flat bonuses instead of percentage based ones. Thoughts?
I need to get home to really ponder this in detail but I will leave you with a few things right now. Agreed Dangerous this. Selected too early and your game pacing will be altered considerably, especially in conjunction with Space Fervor. But... later on it would be great, particularly in the stage of the game where you are creating colonies that you know have very little hope of being anything more than a dirt farm.
I had a chance to think this over and understand that you put quite some thought into it my friend, There is something I totally agree with, and something that would be very distasteful to my play style. Odlly enough, there is also something I'm neutral about. But in the end, it's a matter of taste and opinion, here is my take then. Having seen my favorite tree get nerfed twice, I would consider this proposal a third nerfing. I usually (nut not exclusively) rush for this, precisely because I like that extra money, it gives me the freedom to pursue my style without having to play around with tax rates. And while I do some min-maxing occasionally, I prefer to keep it minimal. Early on, when I'm generating 6-7 credits a turn, a single building and the wrong leader can hurt me financially, the econ capital helps, but I can get this perk before that is constructed and it helps to keep me in the black long enough to get the old economy roaring. As I already stated, I totally agree with this. Terraforming is a huge undertaking, you need to have built up before you undertake it, that usually doesn't happen as early as the player constructing asteroid mines. I'ts very logical to offer the benefit to asteroid mines then when it can still have a moderate impact rather than leaving it where it is now. And here I am neutral, as long as the wealth culture is in the middle, there is still a symmetry to it (3 4 3). Also if you bring it up so that it is all uniform (3 3 3), then you move Master Geologists/Aggressive Terraforming down two levels if it is switched with Astro mining Space Privateers. Is it really needed?
EDIT: Updated to add image and organize the post better. Image of what I am proposing for clarity: Space Socialites (Tier 3/Adventure Path - Skill Change) This currently provides between 2 - 8 BC/turn in the early game if rushed. That is highly dependent on having several colonies at an early stage as it is +2 BC PER COLONY. Megacorporations (Tier 3/Wealth - Moved from Tier 4/Wealth)- This provides a minimum of 12 BC per turn based on +2BC per POP with just your capital's starting POPs. It is highly likely to provide substantially more than that when unlocked. Astro-Mining Guild & Space Privateers (Tier 2/Wealth - Moved from Tier 3/Wealth) This move would provide earlier guaranteed access to a leader (could be important!) with a specific economic skill. It also allows additional exploitation of asteroids which are now more valuable in the early game and thus more likely to be in place to benefit from this early on. Interstellar Geology & Planetary Prospectors (Tier 4/Wealth - Moved from Tier 2/Wealth) These are less useful early game and are often selected only to unlock the more useful perks below them. They aren't bad skills per-say, but I'd perhaps like to see them tweaked in the future to fit the WEALTH theme a bit more. Anyway, these aren't early game perks. Why These Changes? Megacorporations - why move it? As a Tier 3 WEALTH skill, it provides access to much needed income to those that like that playstyle. It allows access to funds to keep you in the black without having to touch the sliders, sell ships, or worry too much about the economy. The Space Culture trees become uniform across all three. Each had a tier 3 "special unlock" and a tier 6 "special unlock" The special buildings (Galactic Navigation Archive, Galactic Relic Exchange, Galactic Amusement Park, Galactic Knowledge Exchange, Galactic Industrial Conglomorate, Galactic Space Port, and Galactic Surveillance Network) all unlock based on tier 3 Space Culture choices. This is more apparent when that perk choice stands alone in the tree. Space Socialites - Why change it? +2 BC per COLONY has no real thematic grounding to the ADVENTURE path or the perk choice itself. +2 BC per COLONY provides no long term benefit and minimal short term benefit compared to other available options. Interstellar Tourism receives a benefit because the perk infers people are socializing, visiting sites, adventuring, enjoying the night life, etc. It fits the skill, BUT it should have a secondary bonus (because access to tourism can be hit and miss) that is tied to this same concept of people meeting up and adventuring together. My aim is certainly not to hinder anyone's playstyle or hamper their fun. I am however looking for inconsistencies in the design both mechanically and thematically as I have with various aspects of the game. In this case it makes sense to me that the primary economic boosts remain in the WEALTH path as its name dictates. Intersteller Tourism does provide wealth, but the nature of what it entails makes sense with the theme of the ADVENTURE tree. As to if changes are needed? No, the game isn't broken if things aren't changed; However, there are clear thematic disconnects, discrepancies, and uninteresting decisions that could be easily resolved.
See that conceptual culture tree you have above ^^^ That tree would iincentivise me to scatter my picks more across the branches rather than concentrate on one over the other as is currently the case. This may be more fun, I don't know, but I would certainly be willing to find out.
Thanks for keeping an open mind. Ideally all three paths will be very useful and unique in the long run. If need be we can always buff the lower part of them a little if no one is taking that route and we need to reward those who dig deeper.
It's more than an open mind my friend, having a knack to see things from various perspectives, there is something here that intrigues me. I've posted in the past that space culture advances too rapidly for my taste... well part of that is because with the exception of my first pick, I focus on a single tree. That means I get to the "reward" in that tree quickly. The way the tree is structured now, this makes sense to me. Looking at yours however, I see me doing the following one pick from wealth the next two picks from adventure two more picks from wealth single pick from Knowledge and back to adventure So, I would get a more customized mix, perhaps better overall buffs... and delay the progression in a more natural manner. But of course this is just me, I can't speak for someone else, but I do want you to know that I very much like the subtlety of what you propose as well as the enhanced over-all thematic effect. Like you, I agree with this... However, that does not mean that we can't improve here and get quite a lot of bang for the effort. Nicely done my friend.
I like the changes. Well fundamented too. I only have a slight concern that Astro-Mining Guild may come too early and make the mining exploitation strategy a bit too good perhaps. However, you will not be choosing another tier-2 pick if you go with that one. And, it's a strategy like any other. But apart from that minor concern, I think these are very nice changes. We may implement this soon. By the way, it will be interesting to see the effects of having a random space culture perk allocation option, within reason, of course. This has been suggested in the past and I think it would increase fun and replayability quite a bit. Let's see if we can put this in for the release as well. Thank you, gentlemen, for the well thought out suggestions and for the exchange of points of view.
The space culture tree is now arranged as proposed and agreed above in the dev build. And, the randomized space culture perk allocation feature is also now available. Here's one take (always different from game to game if the option is set): I'm allowing randomization until level 4. We could go up to level 5, however there are a couple perks that don't make sense in the very early game. We can also choose to go all in and allow all levels to get randomized but I'm not sure that would be that useful. We'll have an option on game setup time with a strong remark that this should only be tried after knowing how to play the game in the "normal" way first. In a way I'm tempted on including this (and possibly a full leader randomization feature) only as "second wave" options ala XCOM:EU, which you can only set after you beat the game once. Thoughts?
Excellent. Did you end up changing the BC bonus on Space Socialites to one of the other suggested options? I like these ideas you've come up with regarding the randomization options. I believe my favorite aspect of the concept is potentially being able to pick two choices that would typically lock out one another. Regarding the "Second Wave" style options: As these add variety and may be less balanced one way or the other, it is not ideal for a new player to select them right away. As everything should still be new for them, randomness is less important compared to a smooth experience. Locking this behind a victory prevents veteran 4X players from feeling obligated to go with, and judge, this less balanced experience from the start. I agree with your line of thought. I also feel in order to not completely break the game, the most powerful abilities towards the bottom should at the least not be random. One word of caution: plan for the future with the system. Questions to ask yourself: How will space culture evolve in future DLC/expansions? Will more items be added to have 3 choices in each tree at times? Will new levels be added? Will a species specific perk replace a default one perhaps? Absolutely no need to answer me on these, just keep this in mind with the system.
Yes, I changed it to +1 SCP PER POP IN EMPIRE. Sure, a culture perk is now giving extra culture with this change (no other culture perk does that to my knowledge), but I agree that providing a boost to culture is thematic, having those adventurous and highly influential socialites spreading culture around. Getting extra money from taxing those wealthy socialites also made sense to me. But it didn't scale very well to give a bonus per colony, although we could increase the bonus, but then it would be kind of redundant with Megacorporations, which already give money directly. So, we can go with this for now. Yes, the randomization should offer new and fresh situations where you're forced to make different choices, in a good way, from what you normally would. Should be interesting. Yes, let's keep the more powerful abilities out of the randomization for now. As for locking this behind a victory is probably a good idea, but we may leave this available from the start, for now. A strong colorful warning is presented when you hover the option now, the same for the randomized tech trees. I expect a new branch or couple new ones in the expansions. Having more items to allow a choice be made from 3 options is also a possibility. A couple new levels, perhaps. Custom/specific perks per race or other factors replacing default ones also sounds nice. These are all great ideas to explore for the expansions, but for release this should be it. We just need to get it right, as we just did with this thread. So, thanks again for bringing this up!
Good you've covered most of it and I agree with both of you. Let me touch up then on some things that were not discussed. Unlocking the random tree after beating the game may not be enough. For example, I set tutor level, one opponent, small galaxy. Beating the game here should maybe only unlock for Tutor level. If this is easy to do, keep it mind, in other words to unlock the random culture tree in any particular difficulty, should require some type of threshold. Let me also touch on this By this you mean leader stats yes? Good idea, some will never use it and others wont play any other way, more happy players in the end. The one thing to keep in mind is the leaders that are found in ruins or via event. For example, selecting Ourobouros by event only to find out he is a wimp (due to random stats) would not be cool. As long as you take measures to insure that the more special leaders stay special, this will be another plus.
Leader stat randomization isn't something I would particularly use, as I prefer that leaders be unique individuals whose stats are thematically tied to their backgrounds, but I can concede that some others may enjoy this option. If pursued, @Konstantine makes a very good point that we must remain mindful of those leaders who require extra effort to unlock. My opinion - I think the sheer variety and number of leaders that will be in the game at release, on-top of the ones added by future DLC and expansions, will allow for a variety without randomizing this aspect of the game. Right now in Alpha 1b they feel a bit samey for me only because there aren't really enough to go around. If I wasn't guaranteed to see most of the same leaders come up in my hiring pool every game, that would be enough for me. Then again, I prefer thematic leaders over the generic shape them as you'd like type. We do have a few low level leaders that are of that type though.
Yes, I understand, I too prefer more thematic leaders. However, after a while we already know what we can expect from them. Randomizing leaders gives you the ability to play a fresh game in that respect, since you do not know how leaders will behave. This is more interesting for the personality hidden qualities of leaders - more ambitious, more submissive, etc. These surface on desires and acquired traits. That said I do not have plans to include this so soon, and it will most probably only come in an expansion.
Leader stats, traits and especially the hidden attributes that govern the likelihood for triggering some desires and acquiring certain traits.
Okay now randomizing the hidden attributes and desires is something I do like the sound of, at least on occasion.
