Are there plans to include larger galaxy sizes? There was a thread on Reddit recently asking about good 4X games with tactical combat. I mentioned this one and someone replied the game looked great but they wanted to be able to play large galaxy sizes like Distant Worlds. The current max size is quite a bit smaller than DW, will it be increased later?
I can't speak for the Devs but I think DW size is out of the question the way ISG scales. But like the person that replied to you, the size of the map is something I would love to see grow. If you play Huge right now, and uncover all the hidden systems, you should have well over 100 total, (120-140 I think) for this style of game that is a lot. The most I can envision without wrecking the balance and scale of the game would be a small increase that would get you at close to 200, with quite a few of those extra systems being low value. This could give the game a significantly "bigger" feel without disrupting its existing balance.
After a certain point, the big issue is that for truly huge game sizes, some of the mechanics will have to be adjusted. Still, one option is to allow it, but to put an option so that it is not recommended.
Scaling technology costs to the size of the galaxy should be quite easy per use of a multiplier. if the standard galaxy is 100 stars the tech cost multiplier is x1. If I want to play 600 stars then it should be x6. If I want to play only 30 stars, the multiplier is x0,3.
Hi @JOM good to see you around Scaling tech, as you say is not much of an issue, and something to consider if multiplayer is instituted. But having played this game extensively, I can see other factors that would not be so appealing on a map exceeding 200 stars. First, the larger your map, the more that micro will become an issue. Even though Adam and MalRey have taken great pains to streamline colony development, (while still allowing the player to individualize those colonies), I can say from personal experience, that having a dozen colonies is the sweetspot. Once I reached close to twice that number... well, let's just say it was a bit of a hassle. Add in at least a dozen outposts, and the issue wasn't just about colony development, but also defending all my systems. Colonies, benefit from defensive structures, outposts on the other hand can only be defended with ships. At that point I saw the game get a bit out of hand, I needed multiple small task forces as well as some main battle fleets, I had well developed worlds, (usually at the core of my territory) and less developed ones on the periphery. Even with advanced drives, it took time to get my ships back to core for refit as it couldn’t be done on the rim. My fleets were also quite huge for this game… so a bunch of little things started to add up and it was less than ideal. The scenario above was a huge map by the way, it has about 80 systems visible at start and another 40-60 that must be uncovered by exploration… which leads us to another small issue that would get bigger in larger maps. Even with my remote exploration buffed (double efforts at greater speed), I could not possibly hope to uncover that galaxy before game’s end, to make matters worse, it was a bit annoying that very couple of turns I was distracted by having to assign exploration, (can’t be turned off). So while scaling may be easy, it doesn’t address all the negative issues that the game would suffer with really huge maps, that would take considerably more effort. Still, as I said in another post, I would love to see a map go to 180-200 stars, it would make the game more epic, however, to clarify, I would like to see the extra systems added be low value, with perhaps even the inclusion of a biome that no race could use (radiated?) so as to add more strategic depth without allowing the game to unbalance. My opinion only of course
Well I think that its just personal preference what is "too much and becomes a hassle" and what is enjoyable. For example in Space Empires IV I play regularly with 255 systems each with 5 to 15 stellar objects. I manage hundreds of planets and dozens of giant fleets, thousands of fighters and their typical complex SE4 logistics without any issues, but thats because I am the micromanagement controlling type of player. I enjoy it. I play also GalCiv3 on homungous map size with many thousands? of planets with great pleasure. My games last for months and I plan everything in detail but thats my enjoyment. OTOH many people (not me) like to play on tiny maps with 20 planets or so for one single afternoon. Thats absolutely ok for me and I think a good game design should be able to offer both approaches. In MOO2 the cap is in about 100 systems on huge maps. Thats too small for me, thats the reason I would like to have much larger epic maps. I guess every player who chooses more that these 100 systems is fully aware that it could be an intense micromanagement lession. But of course I agree with you that the devs should install some micromanagement tools for those who want to play just epic maps without having to micro everything. I would suggest an simple AI governeur system for colonized planets with some additional options.
Of course it's a personal preference, I clearly stated that it was my opinion, and we both know that there are multiple play styles and preferences amongst players, (there is no need to state the obvious between us) For example, I fall in the middle, I don't want my game to end in an afternoon, I prefer about a week, (as far as this game goes) Now MoO2 had far less systems than 100, it was 72 maximum with a few of those being empty. My memory may be faulty, but that game capped at about 250 objects spread amongst those systems, in other words, half the size of the current ISG maximum. I respect all playing styles and tend to plan out well myself, but my interest dissolves once it is clear I am going to win, so while I want the game to run for a week or so, I want the issue to be in doubt at all times. To please all playing styles, even the (dare I say), extremes, is not that easy, the point of my post, and I apologise if I didn't express it well, is that the solution for expanding the larger maps is not isolated to scaling the research tree, that is too simplistic of an approach. Right now, I can tell you that a huge map doesn't really feel huge, I agree with that, but at the same time, I think quite a lot of work needs to be done before you can increase that map by a factor of two, let alone five. I never played SEIV but have hundreds of hours on V, complexity for comlexity's sake is how I describe it. And while it is the only star-lane based game I enjoy, I tend to ignore entire sections of it as they really don't serve a purpose. At the same time, having a lot of colonies there isn't much of an issue, few contain shipyards and you can auto-upgrade buildings in mass. Growth and production times are so quick, that after getting my colonies up and running, there is little more to do with them. Still, I find the process of moving my hundreds of ships quite annoying when my empire gets large, it can take several turns for them to reach their destination, and sometimes, when I have multiple fronts to cover and masses of ships in transit... well I go to sleep and when I pick up the game a day or two later, have a hard time figuring out exactly what I was trying to do.
I've been thinking some more about this, in particular this I don't think this would work as intended. let's examine the two extremes. At a times 6 multiplier... you would need about 30 turns to research a tech such as tolerable colonization. a basic level one tech. Early on, the effects of a theoretical 600 star map are meaningless, the player would still be restricted to the area around his starting location and be pressed to have three colonies quickly, exactly as things stand now. The player would then not have any accelerated start to compensate for the six fold increase in tech cost, meaning that getting through the tech tree early to mid game would be out of balance. At a .3 multiplier, the reverse holds true, where a tech a turn would be the norm in the early game. This approach, an across the board multiplier would not work, the multiplier would need to be more customized. For example, tech level 1 would not be affected in either scenario, tech level 2, would see a very minor multiplier applied, level 3 a bit more and so on. The fact of the matter is that the idea of an easy fix to the tech tree on extreme maps... would un-balance the game and negatively impact it. The fix would need to be a custom approach where the variables are determined after much testing and then applied on a level by level basis.
I agree with Konstantine - an across the board modifier would need a lot of tweaking to make it work across all of the map sizes. Some things would scale very well and others very poorly. A scaling of x6 versus stars I think would cause various problems as well with the pacing of the game. Map design is always a very delicate balance and with many, many trade-offs. The challenge is always to identify the right set of trade-offs for the optimal game experience.
I think large colony numbers are not suited to games like these.I would like a option for a bigger area for the galaxy so it's very spread out.
The tech would need something like they have in Civ3. It is a function of map size, difficulty level and cost factor. It also has a small tweak for knowing others that know a given tech. This allows for a decent relation on all map default sizes the game allowed. I had created a cost factor for several maps sizes that were above the ones defined in the game, but the game allow you to use. Research Cost = [MM * [10*COST * (1 - N/[CL*1.75])]/(CF * 10)] - Research done so far (beakers) MM is map size Tiny 160 Small 200 Standard 240 Large 320 Huge 400 CF = AI cost factor(as on the difficulty tab in the editor) For the purposes of the research cost formula, CF has a maximum value of 10 for humans. Chieftain 20 Warlord 12 Regent 10 Monarch 9 Emperor 8 Demi God 7 Deity 6 Sid 4 COST = technology cost as on the civilization advances tab in the editor. N = number of civs on the diplomacy screen that have discovered the tech. CL = number of civs left in the game I used maps of size of 530, 650 and 750. They let you create maps well beyond the Huge designation, but would not correct the map cost factor. So you needed to edit the maps to increase it or naturally the research would break down.
Yes, and the mechanics would have to be individually tested with the different map sizes to ensure balance to ensure that the formula was fair, which is a challenge as well.
Some more feedback for you gents I'm playing the huge map now and you know what, it is misleading. You start the game, look at the map and think "meh, that's not huge" Then you start to play. Right now I have a tiny corner of the map, and my ships have fusion drive... i need about 4 turns just to get from one end of my empire to the other. Sure, I will get better drives down the line, but right now I control about 5% of the map, what will happen when I control 20% Then the exploration kicks in. Go ahead and load a huge map and bring up the remote exploration screen to see what I mean. Apart from the fact that you will discover dozens of additional systems, just the fact that you need to scour the map carefully reminds me of how Imperium Galactica 2 was able to make a map with less than 100 stars seem like a huge galaxy. In my opinion, the map is misleading, it looks smaller than it is and the actual strategic depth of a huge map in ISG is... huge
I think with the single colony in a system mechanic some sort of mid to late game ringworld that combines all the planets in a system would help offset the micro which does start to hurt the game later on imo. Maybe for the expansions?
I've been playing around with the latest release, (Alpha2a), and I keep running into two recurring themes that make the huge map feel smaller than it is. In truth, for this type of game, the map is very extensive. With your staring drive, it would take a considerable number of turns to transverse it and be almost impossible to actually explore every sector. Yet still, these two factors I want to discuss make it feel small. I set the game to huge Galaxy and six players total these days, swapping out my version of the humans over the stock race, and even though I'm playing with two fewer races than I did in MoO2, on a map with twice as many systems, MoO's map felt larger. The first factor causing this, is factual and will be present in every single game, and that is the range offered by logistics. My starting range is enough that I will usually have a minimum of 2 visible systems in range, with some starts giving me as many as six. Keep in mind I'm referring to "visible" systems here, this does not take into account what can be discovered in that same area. By the time I research Improved Logistics, which is only one step better than my starting range, I've gotten a significant portion of the map in range. These ranges are set at five parsecs and seven parsecs respectively. Once I research further, my range increases to 12. I understand the logic of wanting to insure the player has nearby systems to reach early, you don't want to cause them frustration if they don't, but there is a consequence for having such liberal ranges. The other factor may just be my luck only, though I recently rolled 8 starts to see if I could see a pattern, and here is what I got. The earliest I made contact with another faction was turn 7, the average was in the mid 20s, and the longest I went without contact was turn 46. Perhaps this was on account of the difficulty settings I chose but I doubt it, and while the occasional early contact is good for giving the game more variety, consistent early contact only diminishes the feel of how large the map actually is. This makes it hard to reconcile, 6 races, on a map with 140 systems at the least, averages more than 23 systems per race, that sounds like a lot, it is lot, but getting to meet the neighbors so early, after only touching a handful of systems, diminishes the "feel" I suspect that part of the reason this is happening, meeting so early, is the logistical range. I don't know what the starting logistics are of the Alien races on the levels where they receive six free techs, but once the player sets down a colony or two, and the AIs do the same, contact is inevitable
Being able to build ringworlds or other megastructures in the late would be very nice, yes. It would help reduce micromanagement, plus of course they're just damn cool.
