Before I begin, it's time for one of my random disclaimers, that the views expressed are my own… blah, blah, blah, I am not affiliated with, or represent the game developers, yadi, yadi, yada, and whatever else floats your boat as a statement of an independent and un-biased opinion. Phew! Now that I have that out of the way, I want to take sometime to discuss the new ship Refit mechanic and take an in depth look at it. Now we all know what refit is, but just to be fair to anyone that’s new to these types of games, a brief explanation. You build or are gifted your first ships. As time passes the experience level of said crews on said ships increases. If you scrap the ships at some point, (due to obsolescence or the need of quick cash), all that experience is lost… which is a bad thing because the more experienced the crew, the better the ship functions. What’s that you say? Why didn’t I simply transfer the crew from the old ship to a new ship? Well because they’re, umm, I have no idea. ISG does not permit that, which is kind of sad as I have seen some games that do exactly that. But I digress. Let’s focus on what is actually there. To refit a ship (improve it to a newer design), you must take the ship to a location with a star-base and put it into cue to do just that. The number of turns needed to refit are variable and are dependent on the development level of the colony, size of ship, how extensive the refit etc. This is all executed well in game. The system works as designed. Practically however, and more importantly, fun-wise, I see a few different things. If you have only a few, (as in handful), of ships, you are at peace, and haven’t expanded much, it’s fine. Bring those bad-boys home, put them in cue and a few turns later… shiny up-graded ships…nice. But here is my latest experience. I controlled 40% of the galaxy, with over two dozen ships which were deployed in three fleets of six ships each, and three squadrons of two ships each (pus or minus). I was at war with both AIs and covering a HUGE front. As players naturally expand from their core (homeworld) outward, my most developed colonies were… you guessed it, not at the front. Oh I had numerous star bases alright…(except of course on my outposts, which can’t have any, some of which were at the front)… BUT, (and yes it’s a big but), the star bases that could reasonably refit ships efficiently were not at the front lines. Soo I tried pulling ships back to the core to refit… what a micro-management cluster---k. Imagine trying to pull ships from six locations to the rear areas, re-assigning the remaining ships to ensure your front is covered, while also deciding which base will refit what, and which base, (If any) will produce new builds. And imagine doing it for 25+ ships! Huh? Isn’t this realistic you ask? Isn’t this exactly how it was done in the Pacific during WW2? Yes, (and to take a more serious tone), for a game, this refit mechanic, is quite possibly the most realistic aspect of it all. If you think I am trashing the system, guess again. The thing is, those Admirals in WW2 had entire staffs to aid them, we players do not. In other words there are times when this can be overwhelming and you will just ignore the option to refit, or start popping some aspirins to deal with the ensuing head-ache. Nothing wrong with that, and to be honest, I have no suggestions on how to make it better or more streamlined, I was kind of hoping that maybe someone reading this does. It’s a good mechanic, it’s executed well, and it’s quite realistic, perhaps too much so.
Thanks for your comment on ship refit. If the micro becomes unfun or unmanageable, which I guess is what you're already reporting here, we may have a look at ways to streamline the way we refit ships. We could have a "go refit and back" option and/or implement the CFL suggestion on this topic, which is "refitting system to allow mass-upgrade of an entire class of ships at once". These may not be optimal ways to refit ships, as the game will figure out which system the ship should be refitted at, and to which design to refit to. But this may be good enough in those stages of the game where one has too many ships to have to refit them one by one. Of course, if you have comments on this or have other ideas to streamline the refitting process, please let us know. On the possibility of transfering crews to another ship, while understandable we haven't consider that as it's very important for us that individual ships become more meaningful as the game goes by, and we assume that crews, like the player, become attached to the ships they service in. The thinking and inspiration behind that is, for example, when the starship Enterprise was refitted in Star Trek, the main crew stayed with it, otherwise the ship would be decommissioned and its key personnel dispersed and set to other duties and other ships. So, the special skills and crew experience that emerged from the whole crew when they were working together in that ship would be lost. Hope this makes sense.
Hi Adam, my pleasure. Actually, I thought quite a lot about ship refit and I can’t see any easy solutions. The existing system, as I already noted, has the advantage of being very, very realistic. It is executed well, and works by taking advantage of existing components (star bases and build queues). The main drawback is that it can be very micro-management intensive, and very difficult in times of conflict as it could break a players concentration just when she/he can least afford it. I thought about perhaps tying ship Refit into credits and wealth, as they become very abundant later on, but I’m having a hard time figuring out how to do it in a way that retains some realism and doesn’t just become a paid for, mass auto-upgrade. I’m also trying to remain aware of the AI in this, as any procedure must be something that it too can use. I revisited the idea of a mobile dock. In other words a ship, similar to a support vessel, (or the support ship itself), that could upgrade ships. This would remove part of the problem as the vessel could visit the front and upgrade there, versus the ships being sent to a nearby star-base. But the rest of the issues would still be there, so I see no clear advantage with that, you would just move the support ship around instead of the combat vessels and still have all the other issues. So unless you were to consider greatly abstracting the system, I don’t see an easy way out. One abstract possibility then could be that a researchable tech be added for “strategic Refits”. The player would need to research the tech, and possibly build an empire wide facility for it to take effect. Once these pre-requisites are met, then the player, upon designing a new class of vessel, could be prompted to select “upgrade existing class vessels”. There would be a monetary cost for the upgrade which would need to be based on some logic such as, number of ships to be upgraded and the cost of the upgraded systems. Perhaps if this was done in conjunction with the existing system it might be worth exploring. In other words, the system would stay as is initially, (manual) and the strategic refits would be the next logical step, (once researched and built). At that point we would go from manual to automatic (within the definitions above) Something along those lines would certainly be more abstract, and while not an ideal solution, it could be a starting base for an easier system that isn’t just auto-upgrade. Or, you could just leave the entire thing as it is, after all, it’s pretty hard core and there is something to be said about how it can play out. With the existing system, the player may have to consider what to upgrade and what not to, it can lead to situations where older vessels are still at the front, along with some upgraded ones at their side. The “Refit and Back” suggestion has merit, but could result in complications as well if ships are sent automatically to bases that the player would not have chosen or had intended to remain free for other purposes. As I said, it’s a tricky and difficult situation that doesn’t seem to have an easy solution without sacrificing some things that shouldn’t be sacrificed. On transferring crew, no worries there, it is basically the flip side of the same coin, and I do not advocate that you include anything like that. You would need to include an entire new approach to crew generation and training which would only increase the micro-management head-ache. No, as long as the crew (and its value as experience is gained) is covered by the ship Refit, there is no need for it... that would be too hard-core even for an old-timer like me
Talk about disclaimers, I am fine with games that may take 400 or 600 turns. This means micro management is my forte. Though I do not mind not having to do a ton of it. So having a 20 to 30 ship fleet to rotate for refits, is no big deal for me. Bigger fleets to upgrade and where to send them on games like Ascendancy was a tactical nightmare. For ISG I do not see it being any strain to manage in terms of my enjoyment. It may in some cases be an issue in terms of defending or attacking. Something a larger fleet would solve.
I don't see a big problem with refitting right now. If you want to make it simpler that is fine, but I wouldn't allow to refit ships at the frontline. This would be a big advantage for attacking side.
Maybe we need a refit all section for larger maps. It is going to be a big deal for longer games where there are many, many ships on the map.
I think the most important aspect of a game mechanic is to force the player to make interesting decisions. Decisions are almost always made out of scarce resources. (even time or map space can be such a resource) OTOH a rule system should also be elegant, easy to use and fun for the player. So I suggest the following system to avoid too much micro. -there are predefined "refit and repair" bases on the map. (could be a starbase or a mobile constructions base etc.) On default every ships home base=place where it was built. If this home base ever is captured or destroyed it will change it automatically to another base in the empire. Its always possible to change this home base manually by the player if necessary. -each ship has 2 refit buttons with the button "refit at nearest base" and "refit at home base". if hit the ship simply disappears from the map (naval strategic rebasing) and turns up x turns later on its home base/ nearest base available (depending on the button the player hit) where it will take some time to refit. After refitting it can be used again normally. -If you hover with your mouse over the refit button it will show you the cost of the refitting to the most modern and/or any other eligible design and the time how long it is out of action. -if the devs want to spice the things up, make it a little bit more complex, refitting could be quite expensive and addtionally home bases could have a capacity of x ships which can be refitted at the same time, so that even rich empires could not refit everything at once. Its also possible the refitting at the nearest base is limited for only small refitting like weapon upgrades while refitting at the home base is cheaper and/or reserved for big overhaul (engines, different power systems etc.)
This made me think, it could be similar to the hearts of iron series... For example, a refit button is added to the ship. It can only be used if the following prerequisites are met; There is a new class of ship designed The player has at least one base on the map. Now, once the player hits that button, the ship would start to refit, each turn a percentage of refit would be done. The total number of turns needed would depend on things such as ship size, number of bases and how extensive the refit is. The ship in question would not need to go anywhere for the refit to occur and would still be active, (though as the older class), until the refit is complete. It could be spiced up even further. A monetary cost (per turn) could mean that it doesn't get spammed It could also be tied into freighters, meaning that the number of free (un-assigned) freighter fleets on map, dictate how many ships can be refitted per turn (shuttling parts back and forth) The thing is though, the current system is pretty hard core... and I like it, I just wish I had a junior officer I could assign the task to
