Hot posts in thread: [Beta] Fighter Bugs and Initial Feedback

We are too late to consider these two for the release, but we could consider them for post-release.

 

Maybe it's not so bad as it seems. Phasors are indeed versatile, but they lack punch. If fighters are equipped with weapons modifications only when they should, this means you need to research tech level VII weapons to get both AP and SP for fighters with Phasors. Wurzite comes in level VI tech. At level VII tech it's Phasors with AP and SP against Wurzite Cannons with AP.

Level VII Weapons Tech (Fighters)

Fighters with phasors with AP and SP inflict 10 damage (half of 20 because it's a PD version) each when they strike (for a total max of 40 damage per round) directly to structure and systems because shields and armor are bypassed.

Fighters with wurzite cannons with AP inflict 12 damage (half rounded of 25 because it's PD) each when they strike (for a total max of 48 damage per round) directly to structure and systems when shields are not available, or to shields when they're avaialble.

I wonder if this means Wurzite Cannons could be lower powered. Perhaps 30 base damage would be preferable, not only because of fighters, but maybe in the general case, and the fighters just show what may be unbalanced in general.

So, if Wurzite Cannons do 30 damage, this means a fighter would inflict 15, for a total of 60 damage (vs 40 of phasors). True, the 60 would first be discounted on the shields for Wurzite, while the 40 would take out structure and systems directly.

Or, maybe Phasors should be nerfed all around. 20 damage directly to structure and systems is quite strong, especially with stun ability. We could at least make them more expensive in cost as they are now.

Conclusion

1. Phasors cost could go up (doesn't affect fighters though).
2. Wurzite Cannon damage could go up from 25 to 30 (it has double accuracy penalties already).
3. Phasors are the only weapon with both SP and AP modifications. We could nerf damage or take out one of the modifications. Personally, I think it's good to have 1 weapon that is special because it allows both piercing modifications, but perhaps it's too good at the moment.

Or, we only disallow AP from phasors for fighters, specifically, due to "technical constraints"

I'll think about this more. Feel free to provide your own thoughts.

 

We could expand the fighters description, phasor description, or we could put that info in the manual. Just a few ideas.

 

So in that scenario, phasors would have shield piercing only, wurtzite would have armor piercing, and gauss-coil would have shield piercing. That seems reasonable.

The only issue is how will players know their phasors only get the shield piercing mod from regular phasors? The player gets limited info about their fighter load out in game, which goes back to a couple of items in my OP about the log and info panel for them.

 

We could restrict phasor modifications to shield piercer or armor piercer on fighters, but not both. SP only perhaps? It makes sense thematically, at least to me. And maybe AP must be foregone for fighters because their small PD mount lacks punch or something.

 

Yes, it would help lower the initial impact of Phasors for sure, but...

I do wonder if it would then be best as a player to move up the tree without getting Wurtzite Cannons in that case. I think Phasors still outstrip Wurtzite Cannons in damage once they get shield and armor piercing. You also still have the stun chance being applied multiplied by each fighter attacking.

I suppose it could be considered a choice you make. Wurtzite Cannons may be better against high hull strength ships later in the game. Early on though, all the ships have low hull strength and can be quickly killed with modded phasors. Not sure if the AI uses the optional buffs to hull strength on their later designs.

Phasors may even beat out Gauss Coil-Gun (with shield piercing) in raw damage/killing capacity against low hull/system strength targets. Bypassing two very potent forms of defense (as Phasors do) at once is very powerful as shown in my saves.

 

Thanks for the report and discussion. We will fix the phasors "all modifications from the get go" issue. Phasors are indeed versatile. However, that versatility comes with a price, as its shield piercer and armor piercing weapon modifications aren't cheap. So, we will allow fighters to equip phasors with piercing capabilities only if the modifications are available as they normally would for the other ships.

As for allowing multiple fighter / bomber bays to be installed, that will have to be addressed as a possible enhancement for post-release.

Would this be a good compromise in your view for the time being?

 

I am trying to fix issues with as few changes as possible pre-release. In this case, I am providing info on some bugs and also feedback on the fighter changes already in the game. The changes overall are good, but phasors are broken (on fighters).

I too would to like to have more fighters on a carrier some day, but they also need to gain higher level tech so they aren't using woefully out of date weaponry compared to the rest of your fleet. This step is where we are at right now. The damage output is increased because of the tech change and some bugs being fixed in the last release. Also, you aren't stuck shooting recharging shields endlessly now.

The game can be rebalanced if/when more carrier options are introduced in the future. For instance, by giving fighters a specialized version of the weapon tech that does -70% damage instead of using PD modifier at -50%. Now you can have 4 fighters doing less damage, 6 fighters doing similar damage to today, and 8 doing more than they do today. In this regard these changes aren't taking away the opportunity to make these changes in the future.

 

1. The combat log is no longer accurate for fighters.

Shown here is a battle (Savename: Fighter Log) in which my fighters are clearly doing far more damage to the ship then shown in the log. The log should ideally display accurate info so I can determine if the damage being done is correct and judge the balance.

Just load the save, click end turn, and you can fight the battle.

Weapons used are phasors.
Rak-kak has Expert Squadron Commander (+75% damage to fighter damage)

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2. Hidden Window behind fighter window

What is this window behind the one shown? Is that where info about the weapons the fighters/bombers are using is displayed?​

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3. Balance issue found while testing - Possible to find tech that is very powerful from space monsters

This isn't directly fighter related, but occurred while I was performing tests with the attached battle.
In the combat attached, I was able to capture gauss-coil gun technology for free from defeating the space amoeba. That is three levels above my current weapons tech level. That is too powerful a find and too big of a luck swing.

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Saving the best/longest comments for last...

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4. Phasors are way too powerful on fighters.

At tech level V, Phasors can be unlocked.

• Normally they can't have armor piercing until you've reached tech level VI
• Normally they can't have shield piercing until you've reached tech level VII.

Fighters get phasors, with armor piercing, shield piercing, AND the stun chance at tech level V.


EXPERIMENTS/EVIDENCE:

TEST #1 PHASORS

• Load save (Savename: Fighter Starbase). No Squadron Commander buffs.
  
• Press End Turn
  
• Attack SOL I
• Send in one set of fighters and press end turn a few times
• The fighters can kill the star base in 2 salvos by bypassing shields AND armor.

TEST #2 WURTZITE CANNONS

• Load save (Savename: Fighter Starbase). No Squadron Commander buffs.
  
• Use Collective Transcendence to immediately finish Wurtzite Cannon research.
• Press End Turn
  
• Attack SOL I
• Send in one set of fighters and press end turn a few times.
• The fighters MIGHT destroy the starbase in 4 volleys before returning, but sometimes fail to do so and have to return to refuel/rearm.

TEST #3 WURTZITE CANNONS + RAK-KAX

• Load save (Savename: Fighter Starbase Rak-kax). Expert Squadron Commander buffs.
  
• Use Collective Transcendence to immediately finish Wurtzite Cannon research.
• Press End Turn
  
• Attack SOL I
• Send in one set fighters and press end turn a few times.
• The fighters will destroy the starbase in 3 to 4 volleys. The extra damage is hard to calculate. Is it because the cannons are doing more, or just because their attack value is higher a leader is present?

OVERALL COMMENTS ON THIS ISSUE:
Researching Wurtzite Cannon, a level VI tech, is a significant downgrade for fighters from the level V tech Phasors. The armor piercing is nice, but not nearly as nice as shield piercing + armor piercing + stun + high accuracy phasors.

I would recommend Phasors revert back and lose their PD modification so they can't be used by fighters. Phasors are too good, at least when you don't have to worry about space or cost to add all the good modifiers on-top of the stun. They are probably the most versatile weapons in the game.

Wurtzite Cannons feel better with the armor piercing boost. More testing is required, but they seem usable. I can't tell of expert squadron commander damage buff is working or not. They may have just been more accurate with a leader around.

Also, the starbase has Chaos Chain. I know this has been brought up already. It has no PD to defend itself, so it is very easy pickings. Now, it is a weak tech level 2 base, and perhaps fighters with much higher tech, level VI Wurtzite cannons, should handle it easily, but the fact that it can't shoot back at them or the carrier might be an issue.

Gauss-Coil Guns are much higher tech and still don't have the overpowered shield piercing + armor piercing + stun combo of Phasors. I like that they are a PD option now, and think they will be a nice upgrade for fighters at tech level VIII. Wurtzite Cannons as the top level weapon for fighters limited their growth potential as part of the arsenal. Gauss-Coil Guns swap the armor piercing of Wurtzite for shield piercing and gain more damage and accuracy.

I have only used Gauss-Coil fighters briefly, but they seem to be more in-line balance wise than the Phasors are relative to their tech level. Shield piercing also means they are guaranteed to make some sort of impact, even against high level targets with heavy shielding.

Size or building cost of fighter bays may need to go up. More testing is required. If they feel slightly too powerful, I'd rather see their cost go up than to nerf them down to negligible status again. Ample PD defense and flak guns should make quick work of them unless maybe an expert squad commander is in charge.​