Hot posts in thread: Evolutions odds, ends, and stuff

@Ironsides

With the settings I use, and favorable RNG to a lesser extent, I wind up with massive epic games that can take several hundred turns to finish. Of course the last 300 turns are far more intense than the first 400.

This below is a mid-game (for me), large battle. The enemy has 31 ships total, (including 1 Titan and 9 Battleships), I on the other hand had to combine three separate task forces to come up with 24 ships, (with 1 Titan of my own and 3 Battleships). The Sulak enjoyed a small edge in technology, but this battle was fought on one of my better days.

In the past this kind of victory was common for me, now with the expansions and additional work done by the Devs, it's noticeably less frequent.

P.S.
They had no leader, I had Pike, (that offset the Sulak tech superiority imo)

 

Take a look here

 

Thats quite understandable, as a matter of interest what are your settings?

 

I play with ridiculously low research rates for every-one, it changes my entire approach to the game. The AIs always stay with a lead in tech, a considerable lead. That in turn causes me to pick and choose my research, there are no luxury choices, and I tend to stay away from temporary solutions.

Those particle beams can stay useful a very long time. I miniaturize them, give them extra damage through neutronium and eventually a better to hit% through experience and targeting algos. In other words they are useful when I first deploy them, but far more useful 100 turns later. They also are not affected by Neutronium armor (which I encounter a lot).

I also shy away from tech that I know I can use well. Look, I was involved in the pre-alpha and was a former member of the team...unfortunately there are aspects of the game that are easy for me as a result. It takes settings, numerous conscious decisions and even some "house rules" to play the game with a chance of being beaten. That's no fault of the game as it has so many parameters that can affect difficulty, it's just a product of familiarity.

If it's available I do the same. But I also like to guide the desire. For example in one session I had, I made sure that all my ship leaders asked to command a Titan in battle. It made sense to me as ultimately I wanted them on powerful ships with survivability. Now with the Androids available, I'm not as careful as they are perfect cannon-fodder.

 

"Lol, I was using heavy/auto particle beams, if they weren't targeting huge ships I would have been missing due to my poor targeting algos. For example, targeting their cruiser at fairly close range, I had a 42% to hit, the battleship on the other hand was in the 70s. As to their smaller ships, as you see they survived.

Tritanium is mid-game for me...and now I've gotten into it with the Sulak, who sport Adamantium...so I'll be looking to upgrade when it's feasible."

Precisely the reason why I dont research and use kenetic weapons, only as a special later...

In the game I'm currently at the end of it was about the same mid game with the exeption of the neutron beams(turn 139), when relations with the Sulak soured apparantly their diplomat had been rather naughty, apart from their spy missions against sol which were starting to become a problem... didn't figure my ships at that stage were going to beat their fleet (better armour and shields fast and slippery with a large damage bonus in mass), but luckily they'd just gone into a war against the nova who were research friends.
So whilst they were busy felt it a good opportunity to make a preemptive strike against their homeworld which was pretty close only 2-3 turns from sol, at that point they were I think No1 overall in the charts...
Started researching bombbay and sent off 3 cruisers ( sol had another 3) to blockade their homeworld, converted a couple of cruisers I'd picked up to bombers (my bombers are always cruisers) and built another and sent them off to bomb the Sulak homeworlds, levelled their infratsructure one by one and their powerfull fleet (they had battleships) simply evaporated... it wasn't long before they didn't exist, I never fought a major space battle with them it would have been too costly, just lots of skirmishes as the war went on for 30turns.


"Ruiz had a desire fulfilled. Because I put him on a Cruiser when I hired him, and then increased his command rating, his desire was to command a Battleship in battle, (not a Cruiser), that had occurred already and his initiative was plus 2 as a result."

Sometimes its best to look for an easy target when fullfilling a desire if I can I'll find a stray monster, even leave one just for that purpose... at least it wont start any wars.

 

Lol, I was using heavy/auto particle beams, if they weren't targeting huge ships I would have been missing due to my poor targeting algos. For example, targeting their cruiser at fairly close range, I had a 42% to hit, the battleship on the other hand was in the 70s. As to their smaller ships, as you see they survived.

Tritanium is mid-game for me...and now I've gotten into it with the Sulak, who sport Adamantium...so I'll be looking to upgrade when it's feasible.

No argument from me.

PS.
Ruiz had a desire fulfilled. Because I put him on a Cruiser when I hired him, and then increased his command rating, his desire was to command a Battleship in battle, (not a Cruiser), that had occurred already and his initiative was plus 2 as a result.

 

"Not quite. They are offering me a level 6 shield when all I have is level 3. In return I give them a tech they can't possibly use as I've already built the GIC. This smacks of an exploit."

Dont really have a problem with that, I do however feel guilty when they surrender and I refuse...

"Ruiz had the initiative. However, the entire fleet consisted of ships sporting level 3 shields and tritanium armor. The Nova were outfitted with level 5 shields and Wurzite armor. Weaponry was also lopsided, they had tier 5 weapons to my tier 2 and 3, with poor targeting algorithms. Auto resolve and letting the AI handle both fleets in manual combat resulted in a crushing defeat for me. The win by playing this myself was achieved by deliberately selecting set targets with set weapons (All missile fire concentrated on the Titan, all direct fire on the BB initially). It also included maneuvers to close my ships together so that the pd weapons on each one would become mutually supporting, I did this while retaining distance and forcing the Nova to come to me."

Under those circumstances I would certainly try to do the same, however once I have neutron beams my next tek is always helium-3 and beam accelerators/enhanced shields, if you dont have that then theres a clear disadvantage, except that graviton/phasors have reduced effect at range and lack the possible stun effects something I prefer...
Tritanium remains my standard in most games at least untill I can get a better miniaturisation level as I prefer firepower and range over more powerfull close range weapons... the Nova in my experience always has better tek, though often their ship design is somewhat flawed.

"So no. If this were played out by two players of the exact same skill, the Nova would win every single time. Regardless, what I suggested holds true, there should never be absolute odds indicated (100%), as it creates bad impressions when those odds are overcome."

Totally agree and the reason why I ignore it... but you can also say this is true of many games where auto resolve combat is a thing as its an odds based result.

 

Yes, though very rare.

Not quite. They are offering me a level 6 shield when all I have is level 3. In return I give them a tech they can't possibly use as I've already built the GIC. This smacks of an exploit.

Ruiz had the initiative. However, the entire fleet consisted of ships sporting level 3 shields and tritanium armor. The Nova were outfitted with level 5 shields and Wurzite armor. Weaponry was also lopsided, they had tier 5 weapons to my tier 2 and 3, with poor targeting algorithms. Auto resolve and letting the AI handle both fleets in manual combat resulted in a crushing defeat for me. The win by playing this myself was achieved by deliberately selecting set targets with set weapons (All missile fire concentrated on the Titan, all direct fire on the BB initially). It also included maneuvers to close my ships together so that the pd weapons on each one would become mutually supporting, I did this while retaining distance and forcing the Nova to come to me.

So no. If this were played out by two players of the exact same skill, the Nova would win every single time. Regardless, what I suggested holds true, there should never be absolute odds indicated (100%), as it creates bad impressions when those odds are overcome.

 

I do believe that I have had accretion discs without resources on a number of occasions more commonly only the tourism/research benefit..

The Tech exchange is usually in my favour, ie their offering to exchange a high end tech for a wonder that I've already built, if you've already built the galactic space port as well (which I expect you have) then its an opportunity to get a diplomatic shared tech bonus for no loss, though of course you dont gain any tech by it... at least thats the way I see it.

Battle odds, usually I ignore it.. it doesn't seem to have much relevance, leader initiative I think would play a part here and I believe your leader has the higher initiative at least as a starting leader(Goriathun and Odaada both have fairly low initiatives to start) off course firepower and defence are key at least in my experience, but really I think theres too many variables involved.
At least in the screen shot the Nova seem to have an advantage but 100%? more like 60/40?... I once destroyed a Sulak fleet (at least a dozen ships) with a single destroyer( heavy neutron/PD laser/slight Helium-3 weapon bonus) it was ona scouting mission as the Sulak had threatened us, so as I'd just made contacted with them I sent the scout (I had maybe 2-3 destroyers/frigates) to explore their worlds and was jumped by their main fleet and decided to fight it out rather then run.
When researching tech I tend to jump a lot to get the tech I need by the quickest route, largely because the higher the tech level the lower the time cost of lesser techs.

Edit: I just checked "Tiger" and his starting initiative is only 3 so I guess it depends on if his initiative has increased since you gained, him something I tend to do as a priority...

 

Two quick issues for your notice.

The first is a rather gamey occurrence, see the shot below, the thing is I have already built the GIC, meaning that if I accepted this proposal I would be gaining a tech without giving anything of value in return. I don't like exploits like this, and a small statement in the code should remove it...it's kind of distasteful and happens with some frequency.


The second is this.



While your algorithm is actually quite good, it cannot take into account the skill level of the player, and skill counts. (Look at this way, in chess both sides are evenly matched, yet few games end in a draw, the more skillful player wins).

As did I


The problem I have here is that this erodes the credibility of the game. I really suggest you cap the percentage at 5%-95% regardless what the algorithm determines. It would then make occurrences such as the above seem more credible.

 

Has anyone ever encountered this below? I've seen accretion disks without resources, but never one that offered no benefits whatsoever. @Adam Solo @aReclusiveMind is this intentional/normal?

 

@aReclusiveMind

Maybe you've noticed this already, if not, and what?

 

@aReclusiveMind

Keith, take a look at the shot and read the text. As the Palacean are inviting me to enter an alliance, shouldn't that read " We invite the < Terran Alliance> to join us in an alliance" instead?

Vesrsion 1.4.3 (a very minor fix I would think)

 

@SilasOfBorg that's a cool story, and to be honest I'm impressed with the way these minor Civs can impact the game. That impact is meaningful yet subtle, truly these Civs are tailor-made for the ISG universe. I tend to go scorched earth myself, taking only strategic locations and razing the rest, it's not unusual to find myself at war with everyone at the same sooner or later. It happens though even when I don't want to go that way, I fall behind in the voting, someone wins it...and I refuse to accept.

No it is not just you, and already the Devs have reduced the effect of miniaturization as a response. But for me this doesn't address the issue. What that did actually was to re-calibrate an area where the problem wasn't and made the area where the problem existed worse. Let me explain.

Lower end weapons don't put out much damage, and in the early game that means few kills in battles against other empires and problems dealing with Monsters. For myself, who plays games with a very low tech-rate, this is noticeable and pronounced. Reducing the miniaturization made these weapons less appealing but made late weapons even more less appealing, because to miniaturize those, you need to research very far into the tech tree (which usually takes longer). Take Photon torpedo for example, once I get that, I have little reason to sacrifice that much space on a ship for a weapon with that damage output firing every other turn. I need to get to weapons tech level 10 before I consider that weapon a good option.

That's one example, there are many more. So how to deal with it in a way that it helps the AI and doesn't throw everything out of whack without investing a lot of resources into it? Simple, take a look at the base space cost of higher end weapons and reduce that base cost. I don't mean anything drastic, a 10-20% reduction should suffice. The AI would still pack "the latest high-tech toys" on its ships, but now there may be a bit more of them. Miniaturization could stay as is, meaning that you would still get benefits for size reduction, something a player is more likely to leverage compared to the AI. At the same time you wouldn't be hurting early weapons either as they are already weak and some of us do enjoy (and stretch out), the early game.

TLDR
Adress the problem where it is, not where it isn't. Reduce base cost of higher end weapons 10-20%.

Edit. Missiles excluded of course, as these have the same base cost no matter the warhead.

 

Funny story: a minor civ turned into a game-winner for me this weekend. As the Draguul, I play a very aggressive game and have found so far that the left-tree in Evolutions lends itself to scorched earth, and the right-tree is amazing for a more typical "capture and leverage" game. I had decided to play a left-tree / scorched earth game, which very quickly leads to all factions disliking me.

However, I was lucky enough to have a diplomatic minor civ with +1 (+2 eventually) bonus to relations. So I was able to hold off AI aggression for a bit longer, which made all the difference in the world. I have been behind in tech all game but it doesn't matter at all.

Aside:

Is it just me or does the AI not make very good choices when it comes to guns / miniaturization? I keep seeing enemy vessels packed with the latest high-tech toys when I'm still using highly miniaturized Tungsten Guns. Yes, damage reduction due to shields is a thing but the damage per space calculation seems to be very much in favor of minaturized older tech for quite some time. Anyway, I need to look closer but I just wonder if anyone else has noticed similar...?

 

Well I finally got the Sulak as a neighbor, annoying that their ships are like mosquitos now, but my presence of Leaders was able to offset their excellent evasion enough to tilt the scales.
However there were some other factors.
When they showed up in great numbers, I withdrew. My galactic speed is 8, (6 from hyperdrive via event, and +2 from a cultural pick), which means I can out-perform them on an operational level quite easily, that's a big help.
It's also interesting to note how different each session is. The Palacean right now are not front-runners, the Sulak and Draguul hold that distinction. The Moltar who were number 2 in one session, are a one-system minor power in this one.
This is partly what I meant when I wrote you never know what you're going to get. This DLC hasn't ruined that, it has enhanced it.

P.S.
See this, it was during a different session.

It was hard...but I declined the armor as it would have been game over quickly. On low tech settings, this event is a tremendous advantage. It also seems a bit un-balanced. The best choice is the armor, perhaps it should come with a morale hit, after all if you read the description of "suffering major casualties"...it would be perfectly justified.

 

Agreed, I'm loving it as well, this DLC has brought color to the ISG universe.
My weekend just started, and I'm firing up the game now...

 

Same observation in my games of the Palaceans, they have been bullying the other AI factions early on with their monsters, and myself to a lesser extent -- most of the monsters are easily dealt with, but if you don't bring enough firepower they will out-regen you no matter what.

Haven't put enough hours into longer games, I have also been 'playing around'. Some of these evolution picks really shake things up. Loving it so far, can't wait for my workday to end so I can start up a longer game for the weekend.

 

Thank you for the extremely kind words, but don't sell yourself short. I have...considerable time and experience with this game, and some of the tactics and operational doctrines used by ISG are actually my own. Granted, Adam and Keith have continued to get better combat performance out of the AI factions over time, which makes each successive version harder...but I'm still able to stay ahead in this field.

What has me really curious now is the Sulak, I think they are going to present the greatest problem for me, but so far they keep spawning far away and I haven't gotten to fight them with their new perks. Still, I have theorized a few different ways to negate (or minimize) the advantages their perk will give them, but I need to actually fight them to see what needs to be done. (The Palacean in comparison were tough only because they had the monsters with them, but that didn't require any new tactics from me, the difficulty was only that we fought before I had enough ships).

 

Ouch. That's brutal. No question I had it easier, mostly because they kept fighting other races before getting around to me. Of course, having read your posts on ship/fleet design and tactics, I'm perfectly fine conceding you're far better at the game than me. If I'd had your start, I probably would have conceded the game and tried a new start. Or let it play out just to see how long I could hold out before being crushed.