Ok, I think there's a problem with research overspill. My current game is with the utopia Nova and I have +909 on Planet engineering and -327 on weapons, currently. Now I can produce a lot of overspill within Planet Engineering (or basically any other research group, but with PE, since I produce a lot I can steer things so that I have a ton of overspill. Problems: a) overspill isn't shown; b) overspill is usable in full. I think, overspill should be somewhat modified depending on the bonus. EDIT: I realize I should go into detail here. In my current game I have a regular research of 1400 now. PE gets nearly +1000, so that my PE research is roundabout 2400. Weapons research has nearly -400, so my net weapon research is roundabout 1000. When I research something in PE I can have a research overspill of up to nearly 2400 of which only 1400 are "legit" in the sense that the other 1000 are bonus points that should only overspill into another PE project. I love the research system, but I think that overspill over and above the "regular" general research should only be transferred when the next project is of the same area. So what I actually propose is an overspill cap which should be your regular research, except when researching in the same area.
You can infer the amount of research overspill you have by looking in the tech tooltip, as you can see below. The first value is the amount of research spill applied to researching that tech (1331 RP). In any case, I guess it could be useful to see the amount of research spill in a more direct way. Like displayed in the research screen somewhere, for example.
Yeah, but you have to CLICK on the tech for that (and I don't know what happens with the overspill when I do and then redecide). Mouseover tooltip doesn't take overspill into consideration - that's why I came to the conclusion. Mouseover showed 6T for a weapons teach, which I then did in 3, due to a massive overspill of nearly 2200 points, 900 of which were the result of the bonus points I got from researching a PE tech before that. That's why I said, I'd propose an overspill cap which should be your regular research rate except when you research something in the same field than before (I don't see why I should be able to utilize the bonus of one field for another field).
The spill is kept until utilized. So, you can assign and re-assign as you like and the spill amount is maintained until research progress is made (when next turn is issued). Applying research overspill only in the same tech field makes sense. I took note of this and I'll give it some thought at a next opportunity. Thanks for bringing this up!
Well, I mean it in that way that the general tech, yes, overspill, but not more. So when I have general tech 1400 and PE bonus 1000, but weapons a malus of 400, when I research a PE tech and get more than 1400 overspill (could be up to 2399), and I then research weapons, that the overspill should be limited to 1400, not more (not that you couldn't get ANY overspill at all). Of course you could kill ALL overspill, when switching fields, but I suppose this would be a rather unpopular thing to do.
Denying overspill completely between tech fields may not be feasible or desirable due to several reasons, that's why I said I need to think about it when I find some time. I understand spilling between tech fields based on general research alone may sound more realistic, and the rest could spill only in the specific tech field. However, this is yet another example where a balance must be stroke between realism and simplicity, so not to go overboard and complicate things too much for the player. On doubt, I tend to prefer simplicity and abstraction. We'll see. Thanks for your thoughts on this.
There is another problem - the fact that a tech discovery takes at least 1 turn, even if you can research it with the overspill you have. This way, you can collect massive overspill when you have low-tier techs left that cost (way) less than you actually have in research. Example: I have Cultural Exchange Complex left in Economics which will cost 280 Research. I also have 480 overspill. My basic research is 1240. My Economics bonus is +850. So I gain 200 from last turn overspill (480-280) plus the whole 2090 Economics research for the turn, which means I'll have 2290 overspill next turn. I've cloning Facility left as well (660 RP). If I repeat this next turn, my overspill will increase to 3720. I can then research ECM Jammer from defense for 140 (+120 bonus, so 1360 research), meaning +1220 overspill. Which means after 3 turns I'll have an overspill of 4940. Why is that cool? Because in Weapons I have -560, so my research in Weapons is only 680. First Tier VII weapons tech would cost 7714 research or 12 turns. With 3 turns "overspill-collecting" I come with 4940 in the bag, so I need only 2774, 4 turns, when I increase my research a bit (increasing percentage). So this stunt saves me 5 turns. Edit: See screenshots: I'm sure you can discuss this both ways - feature or exploit -, but in this case it's TWO things coming together, bonus research and mechanic. I'm not sure this should be possible.
Yes, research spill carry over is currently a feature. And yes, you can use it in the way you described. The eventual big spill will be consumed after researching a high level tech. It can save you a few turns on a tech on another field, sure. You could start over, but eventually you are out of easy to research low-level techs to accumulate RP spill over in tech fields where you have big bonuses. Moreover, that time you're using for the spill stunt is not being used elsewhere researching other techs that may be more advantageous to have than those low-level techs, and you may not benefit from the research breakthrough feature in the meantime, which can be quite useful when researching research-intensive techs. So, even if this is possible it doesn't mean you should or need to do it. For what it's worth, the AI can do the same, so it's balanced in that sense. In any case, I'll consider this when giving the RP spill topic a look in a next opportunity. Thanks!
I see that differently. If there wasn't the vastly different research output in fields this wouldn't be an issue. But when you have a big negative bonus in an important field (like Weapons for Utopians) and big positive bonusses in others, overspill-collecting amounts just plain cheating for turns: Regularly you'd research the weapons technology with 680 points per turn (needing 11 or 12 turns, the chance of breakthrough notwithstanding), but instead you get a low-level tech "for free" and in effect research the weapon tech with a much higher output, say 2000 points, in addition to that. And once you know about this you can plan for this, leaving cheap techs for an important high-tier tech. In this case, researching a new tier will make all lower-tier weapons smaller, which almost certainly means improved ship designs. It's somewhat annoying because I actually like the basic system a lot. The longer the game lasts, the bigger the difference between research fields, leading to preferences and necessities - that you can circumvent. Which is somewhat thwarting the purpose of the system ... imo.
I've been reading this topic and the points made by @Jolly Joker make sense. At the same time, @Adam Solo does point out that the AI can also take advantage, as well as some of the drawbacks that can be incurred by doing so. For my own play-style, this is a non-issue. I don't min-max as a rule, nor do I feel the need to squeeze out every possible advantage I can. That said, there are many players that will pursue such an exploit if it is there. Ultimately, (and this may be unpopular), I would not mind seeing over-spill eliminated in its entirety. While one could argue that it is an abstraction of how real research works, (where researching a particular application provides benefits elsewhere), it could be just as easily argued that sometimes that is not the case. Researching missile technology for example does not mean that you're that much closer to designing a better laser. In any case this is a game, it needs to be balanced, intriguing, engaging and fun. If it's going to be addressed then, I would have no qualms if the solution were to do away with it entirely, or if perhaps over-spill became a new at-start option.
Personally, I have no problem with no research overspill, on the contrary, but that doesn't solve anything, when it comes to micro-managing research; without overspill, MINIMIZING research point loss becomes a factor - if you have research 200, for example, you don't want to research something that cost 420, because you lose 180 research. The solution is, then, to either research something else or adjust the tax-research balance a bit, so that you can do it in 2 turns and have no or a very small loss. (Age of Wonders 3 has no research overspill; I played it 4 years non-stop and I thought that this had a balancing effect in the sense that even IF some tech is stronger than another, you may not be able to research it for the actual price, but may have to "overpay". Note that AoW 3 also doesn't have production overspill, the same thing applying, so that you often produce an inferior unit because with another you'd "lose" so much production (and turn(s))).
This is only ever an exploit issue because the amount of research you generate in one cathegory can be so very different from the amount you can generate in another. The cleanest solution I can think of would be to seperate the overspill pools, so overspill from one cathegory can only ever benefit another research of that same cathegory. Switching research cathegories should not wipe those pools, rather it should be stored, so that you should gain access again the moment you switch back to the cathegory where there was leftover overspill. The AI being able to use this is not really an argument for keeping it the way it currently works, because unless it is specifically programmed to exploit this, I really doubt it could pull off an overspill collection move as described by Kolly_Joker, while a human could do this easily. It's true, eventually you'd run out of low cost techs, so the amount of times you can use this effectively is limited. But you definitely can cut total research time of a high cost tech while logically you shouldn't be able to, and you even get a few low tier techs for free in the process. The breakthrough mechanism is just random (iirc), while this exploit gets 100% certain results.
