It's not about wanton destruction you know, I think I better clarify what exactly I am doing. (Though I wager a lot of you already know). In traditional warfare, when one side is faced with a clearly superior force that can't be defeated in direct battle, there are other ways to conduct successful operations and hopefully defeat that stronger foe. Cutting the supply lines of that force is one way to deal with the problem. In ISG, supply lines and logistics are abstracted, but this doesn't mean it can't be done. By attacking and destroying Moltar colonies, outposts, and Fortresses; I am reducing the available SSP that the Moltar have at their disposal. At the same time I am depriving them of resources, funds and reducing their research rate. The loss of of these border areas by the Moltar also means that their logistical range is pushed back, (hopefully), and that any counterattacks they launch will be from areas further away, meaning they will take longer to arrive at target and give me more time to react. In essence I am "cutting" (or at the least disrupting) their supply lines. Now you may wonder why I don't occupy the colonies instead of razing them, that's a valid question with an equally valid answer. If I occupy a colony, I have to defend it. As the numerically inferior force I must avoid over-extending myself. In other words I will not and cannot take territory that I don't have a reasonable chance of defending. Time is also a consideration. It is usually much quicker to obliterate a colony than to capture it. Note Termi in the screenshot above this post. That colony is shielded so well that it is taking multiple bombing runs to bring the shield down. So why am I still there? Termi is a colony I want, and one I intend to defend. With that world in my possession, I will push the front further away from my core-worlds and threaten more Moltar controlled systems. Termi is to become my forward-most base. Another way to deal with a superior force is guerilla warfare. In ISG this means small raiding forces available to threaten systems or generally cause havoc. Sometimes even a lone ship, (which may be sacrificed in its mission), can make the AI react to it and pull forces away from the areas I don't want the enemy to concentrate. Speed and range are essential for conducting raids...my speed is 8. So while traditional guerilla warfare doesn't exist in ISG, it can be simulated by more abstract means. So, I am hitting their supplies and keeping them off balance. But this would not have been possible had they not committed the mistake of leaving the front un-defended. Peace treaty or not, I am a hostile power to the Moltar and our relations are horrid, they should have Known better. In my defense, only an incompetent commander refuses to take advantage of enemy mistakes. Finally a word about the Palacean. They are far more powerful than my Terrans, but with a smaller fleet, they are also proving ineffective and are being rolled by the Moltar. I expect one of two things to happen here, (and this is a certainty). Either the Palacean will enter a surrender pact with the Moltar, or they will lose enough worlds that the Moltar will win the vote. The end result will be the same, I will be fighting both of them at the same time. Therefore I have concluded it's better to fight on my terms and at a time and place of my choosing. When I return to the session tonight, I will immediately prepare an offensive against the Lobsters. I may still lose this, but I'm not going down easy.
Agree with your analysis and strategy. Still gonna be hell though. Somewhere out there there's still a metric butt-ton of Moltar SSP and you don't have enough worlds to play cat-and-mouse while it levels your more productive colonies. Can't wait to see how it plays out.
I'm a very dangerous mouse Defeat-in-detail. Another viable option for dealing with a superior force is to attempt to isolate part of that force, gain local superiority, and defeat that part of your enemy. When numbers fail you, remember that getting there first with the most is an excellent way of defeating an opponent by section. Case in point. I managed to isolate a small Moltar force at Oyeet and sent elements of two fleets to engage the enemy. The Moltar thought little of my force and the algorithm gave me a 3% chance of winning the battle. (You know what happened right?) That tally is also wrong by the way, I lost one of my Titans, (previously captured from the Moltar). Still, I'll take this result every single time, I killed more enemy ships, and captured a Titan to replace my loss as well as gained a Battleship. 3%...Really now, I'm actually kind of insulted Adam. All kidding aside, the algorithm is actually very good and accurate...if it was the AI fighting itself. Against a human player, especially a veteran of the game...well that's another matter entirely.
The battle at Oyeet was over and I needed to regroup. My concern was Termi, because I had left only a small fleet there just to maintain the blockade and capture an outpost in the system, the colony itself still held out. I immediately withdrew from Oyeet and sent all the forces in that system to rendezvous with the squadron at Termi. And then I got lucky. Apparently in all the confusion of a crowded map, I didn’t notice that a Moltar force was already en-route to relieve my blockade, I arrived just in time for another battle. This time the algorithm was kinder and gave me an 11% chance to win. Again, the tally is wrong, I actually lost one of my (Moltar-type) Titans, but as you see, I still came away with another solid win. With that battle over, I finally knocked down the barrier shield around Termi and successfully assaulted the planet. But there would be no rest for me now, I had just a single turn to intercept Moltar forces attempting to attack me at Nion. Another victory followed. In other actions I destroyed multiple outposts at Pliopint, depriving the Moltar of resources, as well as large trading and research mines. (I briefly considered occupying this lucrative system, but as I couldn’t hold it, I razed everything instead). The last three turns then, saw me remove 6 Titans, 6 Battleships 1 Cruiser, 2 Destroyers and 1 Frigate from the Moltar OOB. My own forces actually grew during the same time span and now consist of 17FF, 18DD, 12CA, 9BB, and 6TT. (Of these, 3TT and 3BB are Moltar captured ships. All my other vessels are third generation with a single 4th generation BB). Taking a look at the fleet strength charts, I actually saw a small decline in Moltar power. It’s a start. My main problem now is SSP, I am considerably over the limit and will need to take some action to rectify the situation. Of course, I have no desire to scrap anything, but something must be done. (I actually also have a number of ships in queue that are one turn away from completion, but rather than complete them, I switch the queue and keep them as a reserve should I need to replace losses quickly). Perhaps I will scrap all my Frigates and slowly replace them with 4th generation versions when I can, the latter ships have twice the punch, and it would be far less labor intensive than upgrading. I haven’t attacked the Palacean yet, but I’m preparing. They seem to still be offering resistance for now so I may wait and see what happens before taking them on as well. They did ask me for more ships by the way, but I turned them down. I doubt the AI can handle my ships properly and I’m certain it can’t preserve them, so why throw them away?
It's not their advanced tech that's giving me a hard time, (I've dealt with that before), it's the bonuses they've accumulated from strategic resources and control of minor alien factions. I actually like that I can feel the difference with "Evolutions" in this session. I have to strive then to deprive them of resources while also positioning myself to eliminate some minor aliens. The next two turns saw me destroy another two ships, (a Titan and Destroyer), in two separate minor actions, Then it happened again, the Moltar offered peace. Decisions, decisions...I'm at a crossroads and undecided in how to proceed. If I accept peace, it aids me, but it will aid the Moltar as well. I managed to get the SSP situation a bit under control by putting ships into refit, what I really need though is to expand my base. The best way to do that would be to take the peace, refit more ships...and strike the Palacean. The Palacean have annoyed me and they are a soft target. Here's the situation. I never enter into alliances but I did it in this session. One thing I absolutely hate about alliances in ISG is that it automatically gives the ally the right to settle into my territory. That's a big no-no for me and a lot of other players as well. So while I've been busy taking the fight to the Moltar, my Lobster allies have settled in two of my systems, Bri and Cups. That is tempting me. I have a bonus to SSP per colony thanks to the minor Civilization inside my territory, and both these colonies would be easy to defend if I occupy them. Come to think of it, I could probably grab Terronda and Guratera quickly as well. So here's my choices. Accept the peace deal and just reorganize. Deny the peace and continue fighting the Moltar Accept the peace with the Moltar and attack the Palacean Deny the peace and attack the Palacean as well. Any advice?
So, the Moltar recently took a lot of worlds from the Kaek, and they need time to dig in, grow, and fortify those. I'm guessing that if you give the Moltar that time, especially if you start directing forces against the Lobsters, speeding up their demise and forcing an earlier surrender to the Moltar, you will eventually find a doom fleet on your doorstep that no amount of clever play will be able to stop -- and the Moltar only have to wreck a few of your more productive worlds to cripple your production. TL;DR I don't know if peace is a gamble you can afford to take. Were I playing this, I'd leverage the Lobsters as a distraction -- possibly keeping those world-killer fleets from your doorstep -- and continue punching up. You don't necessarily have to kill the Moltar's ships if you kill their ability to support them...
Attacking the lobsters is essentially transferring some of their assets - colonies and ships - to your much more capable hands. Your play is a force multiplier, so those assets become much more dangerous to the Moltar than if they remain in the lobsters' hands. It's a reasonable strategy most of the time. But... Even if you quickly force the lobsters to surrender to you instead of the Moltar, maximizing your asset gains, you have to weaken them significantly. This allows the Moltar to more quickly crush them and turn their undivided attention your way. As SilasOfBorg notes, unless you can first severely undermine the Moltar support system, that's a losing strategy for you. In any 3-way contest, the preferred position is fighting enemies in sequence, not simultaneously. In addition, one generally loves it if two weaker opponents waste their time and energy fighting each other, rather than the big bad empire on their borders. By attacking the lobsters, you're doing some of the Moltar's work for them. Put yourself in the Moltar's shoes - what would you want the two others to do? Given the Moltar's massive lead, you have to hope the AI has a really bad day, and even then, you have to take huge risks. If you attack the lobsters, it's because you believe you can use the extra assets to defeat the Moltar by yourself. If you continue as is, it's because you hope the Moltar will continue to split their attention until you've whittled them sufficiently to defeat them. I'd argue the latter is the more likely bet, but both are gambles.
Thank you both @SilasOfBorg @SirWhiskers , both your respective insights are well received. It appears that there are no good options left, I'm basically under siege now. Let me offer some additional information as it will be influential in my decision. I recently wrecked some Moltar systems but since then have hit a dead end. They must have star-gates now because when I attempted a strike at Phee, a massive Moltar fleet was there to engage me. I know that fleet didn't come from nearby systems because I checked the forces there before attacking. I barely escaped with my own fleet intact. This means that I can only hit non-colony systems now, or react when I'm on the defense. I cannot afford the pitched battles against their massive numbers that would be required to attack more colonies. (Of course I should still be able to set up some traps for the Moltar, and contest them when they attempt to re-settle some worlds, so there is that). The Palacean are steadily being swallowed by the Moltar in the meantime. All the Moltar worlds and outposts I eliminated count for nothing as the Lava-heads have made up for their losses by taking Lobster worlds. At this rate, I am certain the Moltar will have enough votes on their own to force a victory, and I'll be fighting both of them anyway. My main concern is one of numbers, or lack there-of. I have eight fleets out there right now, and three of them are moderately potent, (with two Titans each). These three fleets are committed in the west against the Moltar, with two of them based at Termi and one based at To. The other five fleets have no Titans but do consist of decent sized forces, (in particular the fleet at Miri under Ruiz, which is composed of mostly 4th generation ships). I believe I can perform some SSP trickery and get another Titan on line, which if added to Ruiz's fleet, will give me a force capable of taking on the Lobsters without having to draw ships away from the Moltar. I'm damned if I do and damned if don't, but the bottom line is that there are too many Moltar ships out there. Any chance of avoiding collapse hinges on my being able to expand my own fleet...by a lot. Expanding against the Moltar is not viable, only the Palacean offer me any hopes of gaining the territory required to support a larger fleet. I don't want to do this, but I feel that If I don't attack now, it will only be harder to do so down the road. I'll think some more on it, and report back.
The problem with attacking the Palaceans is the same as before: can you gain enough from them to give you a fighting chance when it's just you and the Moltar or Moltar/Palaceans? It doesn't appear so, but it's certainly the path of least resistance at the moment. It will be interesting to see how much that helps you. One thought: If you combined most of your fleets into a single mass, could you defeat a Moltar reaction force without taking unacceptable losses? You mentioned needing to expand your own fleet a lot, but another way of restoring some balance would be to eliminate a significant number of Moltar ships quickly. Not a couple titans or dozen total ships, but several times that number. Captured ships beyond your SSP could be scrapped for immediate cash and (assuming you win the fight), a Moltar colony would be glassed. A desperation tactic for sure, and given the current ratio of forces, no high odds of success. But if it worked, it might finally begin a self-reinforcing cycle of whittling the Moltar.
The short answer, no...but some things have changed. Well @SirWhiskers these are desperate times that call for desperate measures. Here's what I did. I refused the Moltar offer of peace and we stayed at war. My own forces were solidly entrenched and reacted to multiple Moltar raids, destroying more of their ships in the process including 2 BB. I also of course attacked the Palacean, specifically a double strike at Cups and Bri...and the ISG gods smiled on me. In the screenshot above you see I was researching Advanced Targeting Algorithms, well the assault on Bri netted me Ultimate Targeting Algorithm! (Prior to this, my direct fire weapons were missing more often than not against the Moltar, that is now reversed). The Palacean begged for peace immediately, and following the advice you and @SilasOfBorg gave me, I accepted. Within a few turns I had netted two more colonies, the prized targeting algos, and was back to dealing only with the Moltar. The next large battle against the Lava-heads was bit easier than in the past. But wouldn't you know it, the Galactic vote came up a short time later and as I predicted, the Moltar voted themselves the win. I declined of course and the Palacean declared war on me. Desperate times indeed, but as I've already stated, I'm a dangerous mouse. I allowed the Moltar to send a colony ship to Rohini, and timed my attack for the following turn, knowing they couldn't use their jump gate to reinforce just yet. It was a small victory, but I gained another tech...Ultimate evasion algorithms. I also took the evolution pick that increases my internal component space and allows me to overcharge shields and actually reduce heat. The combination of the two algorithms and this evolution pick made my ships far more lethal than they were in the past. So much so, that I sent Ruiz to attack Terronda before the Achilles, (a 4th generation Titan), could join him. Ruiz faced a more potent enemy force...and tore through it as if it were tissue paper. And then...the gods smiled on me again, the Moltar asked for peace and I granted it. I now have ten turns (at least), to take systems from the Lobsters, consolidate my holdings, and increase the size of my fleet. This isn't over.
Interesting. My advice is based on the idea that time is not on your side. But your strategy seems to suggest you believe the opposite. And who knows? With a few more lucky breaks such as tech gains from battle, you may yet pull this out. Fun times.
In a sense time isn't on my side and your advice was solid. That said, the longer I stay in play, the greater the possibility that something breaks my way...or the opposite. I'm not really sure I can win, but at the very least, I want to see how long I can hold. I also thought about the peace the Moltar offered. Prior to this DLC I would have pointed out that it makes no sense. But there is an evolutionary pick now that demoralizes a human war-time opponent on a per-turn basis. I've fought 400 turn wars non-stop in the past, had I chosen the evolutionary path earlier than I did, the Moltar would be collapsing without me actually having to do anything more than hold out.
Very curious... Terronda fell, but my assault on the Palacean was slow going, and they disrupted my time-table by a very strong counter-attack at Miri. (What a shame they didn't show a similar effort against the Moltar when they were fighting them). I needed to defeat this offensive and do it without taking serious losses, so I recalled Ruiz, pulled Simone from Ragiyama, finished construction of a DD and CA; and even sent one of Pike's Titans from To to join up with Ruiz. (Yes it was that serious). The results were favorable but a great many Palacean escaped my Lobster Fra Diavolo recipe. I could have used containment and trapped them, but I'm holding that in reserve in case it's needed. With The Palacean attack beaten back, I redeployed forces; and also moved on to strike at, (and capture), the colony at Gruratera. Now it's decision time again. The Galactic vote means nothing apparently and the Moltar just declared war on the Lobsters...interesting. I am also one turn away from the peace treaty expiring with the Lava-heads. That means If I send out attacks now, there is a very good chance the AI will not react. Looking at the map, I see multiple targets but the issue is I want to try and capture Beruna, Merth, and Pliopint while destroying Dral and Juy at the least. Unfortunately my assault ships won't arrive in time to do this quickly. I'm going to have to gamble. Some other information of note. I have a 200% base ship attack and 95% base defense. My resources and tech have also made my existing weapons more potent. This means that while my fleet is still small, it should fare better than in the past. (I was able to fight the Moltar to a standstill with inferior units, I should be able to handle this...provided they don't overwhelm me). My strategic goal is to effect a forward perimeter and defend it while grinding down the Moltar. In a sense, it's similar to what the IJN tried to (unsuccessfully) achieve in the Pacific war. I'm hoping I fare better than they did. Regardless, the time to strike is now, the Moltar have moved numerous units towards the south and left their front lightly defended, I may never get another chance as favorable as this one. And to be honest, it isn't all that favorable in the grand scheme of things. Oh yes, I have to do something about the treasury...
I don't know about this...I think I need a small break for a few days. It isn't that I'm losing...it's that I'm also not winning.There is incremental progress to be sure, but it's very hard to push against the Moltar and defend at the same time against their forces. It's taking a toll on me. Let me give the latest status report. I've accepted peace with the Lobsters and am back to concentrating on the Moltar. As soon as the peace expired I sent a single large force to Oyeet and the Moltar of course showed up with most of their fleet, some hundred ships with 27 Titans included. I didn't attack them though, and the fools didn't attack me either. I sprung my containment in the system and immediately withdrew to strike other targets. In the battles that ensued, I picked up more tech and this allowed me to miniaturize certain components and design 5th gen ships. Speaking of ships, I have about 70 total, including 7 Titans and 11 Battleships, another titan will be completed next turn. As I predicted my existing ships, (most of them 3rd generation designs) are far more effective now and I've eliminated some Moltar ships, including 3BB without taking losses. That said it is clear to me that my older designs are fragile. The current situation doesn't really allow me to pull ships away from the front to refit, so I'm going to have to make do with what I have for a while, (at least over time, more 5th gen ships will be available). Oh, here's what my Titan design looks like now. (It's designed to take on either multiple targets at once, or a single target if required. The current galactic situation is below. As you can see I've protected my North-western flank by taking Beruna and disrupted the Moltar at Ploplint while also surrounding Dral. You'll also note that Termi has been left without defenses, I am hoping the Lava-heads fall for that (It's a trap Admiral Ackbar!) Anyway let me take a few days to recharge and I'll pick this back up towards the weekend.
I took a day off and then resumed the session. Deft and shifty maneuvering allowed me to destroy Dral, and Kroma, while also taking down a couple of fortresses and some minor Moltar forces. There was also a pitched battle, and I want to leave some advice for Adam and Keith. It may be a good idea to have a minimum and maximum cap on battle odds. In other words no matter how the algorithm calculates the odds, they should never be less than 5%, (or 95%) depending on how you look at things. It may avoid some slightly embarrassing situations. Case in point According to that, I have no chance to win, none at all, at least that's what zero percent means to me. To then not only come away with the win in the battle, but actually achieve a decisive victory...looks kind of off. And seriously guys, there are players far better than me when it comes to combat. Now back to the session, I toss in the towel. Yes I keep making incremental progress and the Moltar themselves are providing the technology I need, but I believe there are simply too many of them. I would either suffer a crippling loss at some point, (very likely), or take another 500 turns of combat to win, (very unlikely). It was a good session no doubt, and I'm pleased I made it this far against these type of odds. The victory is yours, well done ISG!
I believe a quick epilogue/summary is in order. This last particular session was challenging at the strategic level. There were few resources at my disposal, no asteroid belts to exploit, and very powerful neighbors that limited my expansion in the critical part of the game. Looking back on the session, I too made a mistake that made my position worse. I should have been far more aggressive and never accepted that first peace with the Kaek and Nova. Only by gaining ground early could I have been in a position to either engage the Moltar before they became unstoppable, or at the very least met them on better terms. The main factor that influenced my decision to concede was the last battle I reported. It is all well and good to show you the results, but I need to add some context now. That final battle at Pioplint saw me mass a considerable number of ships to meet my foe. The problem is that most of those ships were still 3rd generation, the same ones that I had fought the Kaek with. TBH my entire fleet was still 3rd generation with some 4th gen ships sprinkled in. Even though I had a 5th generation series designed, not one was actually in service. (This may be why I had a zero percent chance to win according to the combat odds). Even still, I managed to inflict 3 times the losses (by SSP) on the Moltar. Unfortunately I couldn't afford that victory. The Moltar would have been able to replace their own losses quickly, I could not. Even without an actual defeat, a few more of those "wins" would have been the end of me. So while I think I acquitted myself well at the tactical and operational level, I was defeated at the strategic. C'est la guerre, ne sais pas?
I agree that it would have taken a forever-war to clear out the Moltar, and you'd always have been one mistake away from being rolled up. That sea of red, combined with the Moltar's Extreme Transformation evo. perk to get quick, decent baseline production and pop growth out of all planets in their space.. I doubt I would have continued the game myself and I do like difficult games / scenarios. I find that in games where you're stepping carefully around titans, anything you can do diplomatically to make the right factions fight each other is worth more than a big fleet -- I will sell my grandmother to get the Siren, and never pass up an opportunity to bribe or badger factions to war against a likely leader before they start to pull away from the pack. That said, I don't play the game on the same difficulty level as you do, either -- as I'm getting comfortable with Evolutions I've kept things to 100/100/Severe for the AI and 100/100 for myself and will likely only bump that to Impossible and adjust myself down a bit as I get better -- I've found that games that last hundreds and hundreds of turns kind of de-emphasize some systems that I normally enjoy, such as remote exploration. Still, it's always interesting to see the different ways other people play and enjoy the game. Thank you for both AARs, Konstantine!
