Turn based tactical combat

Matter of programming, path optimization and, in large percentage, wrong movement orders, not tactics (though latter could be argued as bad tactics). Unless battlefield changes to something that's not just empty space around planet (hopefully it will), I don't believe pathfinding would be as difficult as ground based RTS that actually has terrain.

Aaaand we're back at the beginning of the argument. Let's try to sum it up:
Game can be played with many races. Each race is different.
Each race has a playstyle... that is NOT different from any other race, especially as AI and in combat. Playstyles are possible, but not needed.
Since playstyle is essentially same... I would recommend changing it to something more immersive, to put it mildly.

Where did you get that?! I'm advocating certain constraints that are in line with each race philosophy, not predetermined designs. Once constraints are satisfied do with design whatever you want. Please do not put words in my mouth.
What you failed to understand is that RTS games were example of asymmetric races and their philosophy of each-race-is-different should be implemented, NOT their mechanics.
The reason I'm advocating that is because original MOO2 AI ships were bland as white paper. There was literally zero difference across the races (please read entire thread). Constraints would ensure that AI has at least a semblance of differences.

One can always hope, but in the absence of it, I'll take space based tbs, even if it's not 3d.

 

Maybe you missed, this is equally true for real time (pausable of not) as it is for turn based.

Pathfinding for whole group of units is not as simple programming feat. Showing of how efficiently hundereds of zergling move down the narrow ramp was huge brag point for Starcraft II team. Empty space looks deceptively simple but 4X devs somehow manage to mess it up. Take a look at MoO 3, MoO:CtS and Armada 2526. For some reason ships are compelled to keep distance, small ships can't stay put and you constantly have to issue movement orders to prevent them from rushing into grinder. Good luck executing tactics while hearding cats. SotS well works because number of units is limited.

AI is not very bright.

You can play each race the same way but at your own determent. There are non-zero differences across the races and if you look around you'll notice how they shape both strategic layer and tactical combat.

 

No, it's not, in real time combat, smaller ships have at least some chance of inflicting damage on larger opponents. In turn based as implemented in MOO2, they do not.

Well, if you're gonna start with premise that real time combat will be badly executed from the start, there's really no point in debating nor arguing for something different. Your mind is made up in advance and no amount of arguments will convince you otherwise.

Really?! Research path of almost any race is virtually same for any race. Build order too. The difference is that you don't have to farm (if silacoid) or chose research path if psylon and klackon. Anything in between... too similar.

Precisely! You have to look really hard to notice differences. I would be delighted if on my first contact I could grab my head in my hands and bang it on the wall saying: "Why alkari?! of all the races why did it have to be alkari?! I don't have anything stronger than laser as PD!!!!! My ships will be ripped to shreds!"
Have you ever had that reaction playing MOO2? If so, that would have been first time I ever heard of it.

I think we are rehashing the same argument over and over. You keep saying there's a difference, I keep saying it's not noticeable, you repeat but it is, I repeat but it is not. So, let's leave strategic layer for now and concentrate on tactical:
Are there any material differences between AI race designed ships? I claim there are not
Are there any material differences between AI race tactics? I claim there are not
Is current turn based system mostly outdated and strongly in favor of attacker (i.e. is attacker able to decisively cripple defense fleet on first turn)? I claim it is

My suggested remedy for first two would be race based constraints that would force design changes on ships to a certain degree. That would reflect on tactical combat.

My suggested remedy for third is real time combat. If it's not feasible or not chosen as tactical combat method for whatever reason, then I would suggest modifying combat to something similar to HOMM system where each ship design has individual initiative and moves when initiative dictates, perhaps modified to allow very high initiative ships to move twice per turn. That would, of course, had to be heavily balanced to be allow only on specific ship classes, and most certainly not on anything heavier than, say, light cruiser.

 

The point is that real time is not inherently better. The problems won't be solved by simply changing turn based to real time. Examples I've listed are real world examples where devs went on to "fix" tactical combat with by making it real time. Bad execution is very real possibility.

How about skipping real time part and going straight to HoMM (5?) system? There is a lot to be gained by analyzing what made HoMM formula work and how can it be applied to MoO setting.

Your mind is made up in advance and no amount of arguments will convince you otherwise. Have you played any race aside from Psilons?

AI is not very bright. But I don't remember having two AI's attacking me with same ship designs. They'd vary quite a lot, maybe because racial traits put them on different paths and made them pick different technologies.

 

The problem with real-time tactical combat in all the MOO clones so far wasn't the real-time aspect, it was the development team that implemented it. They just didn't know what they were doing and tacked it on. Making a real-time tactical combat is akin to making a whole game, but making a MOO type game with it now becomes making 2 whole games, the turn based strategic layer and the real-time tactical layer. Both are major game development projects, and they need to be treated as such. Moo4 didnt do this (give the combat is deserved attention) and the result was blaaah.

I personally would prefer real time combat, but it needs to be done exceptionally well and follow the conventions established in other RTS games, not a cheap afterthought like moo4 was. There also needs to be terrain and other things going on in arena, such as the battlefield being the whole solar system, with the sun in the center and all the planets and moons and asteroid belts and battle stations present for the whole solar system, and even throw in nebulas and such (I know not realistic for a scientific view point, but it would make it more fun and thus can be allowed).

So for me, i would prefer RTS combat, but i know that the developers wont ever implement it properly and thus it will suck so i would suggest the developers do TBS combat instead.

 

There is another problem with real-time combat.
Even if implemented well, a switch to real time combat would cause collateral effects in the game.
Once you implement real time combat you dilute the effects of ship building and design and alter the tactical opportunities available in combat..
Think Moo2.
Your choices in designing ships were not limited to what systems you installed but also allowed choices in firing arcs as well as the mix of weaponry you wanted, etc.
This played out in combat nicely
You could rotate a ship facing to protect a weakened shield, hold fire if wished and move first, fire missiles at one target and beams at another, and even use your pd weapons on a third.
These tactical choices will not be available in RTS even if it is done well.
Now compare SEV
Ship building was real nice in this title but did not matter as much.
Oh you could still decide what to install and how much of it but your decisions in designing a ship would not really matter as much once you got into combat.
All your weapons were basically 360
pd weapons same
your shields were a bubble, once down, they were down on all sides.
Firing on multiple targets became impossible.
etc.

While I agree that real time can be done well as I have seen that and played it in some games, once you implement it, you must also address any other aspects of the game that will be affected. (such as ship design)
The problem then becomes that you have differences between this project and Moo2 and the more these differences pile up the less likely that these game will be considered a spiritual descendant of Moo2. At the same time, the number of players that will have cause to complain could increase.

If ship building and design is to truly matter, real time combat becomes less attractive.

 

I think you could indeed have all those tactical options in realtime. All the things you mentioned are not exclusive to turn based, they are just easier to implement in turn based and all the realtime games you have played the developers didn't have the skill or time/money to implement them with a realtime engine.

The way i would envision (or dream) realtime would be is it is phased approach (a turn based/realtime combination), such that the game will have "turns" where it pauses at a fixed time interval, and during that pause, and only then, can you give orders. You can plot out your moves, set way points (and multiple way points) for each ship, along with setting ship orientation at each way point, set targets (and multiple targets in order) for each ship, and have ships fly in formation or set each ship individually, and when all your orders are given and you are ready, then you hit go, and the orders play out for about 1 min in realtime, and then it pauses again where you can then issue new orders. You would definitely still have weapon arc of fire, and shields would still have 4 sides to them.

The advantage of a good realtime engine is that you can add a new design parameter to weapons: rate of fire. In Moo1/2 every weapon fired once per turn, with one exception torpedoes that fired once every other turn. All weapons effectively then fired at the same rate. With realtime, you could have weapons that fire once a minute, or 9 times a minute, or once every 5 minutes (like a death star). And improvements in tech could increase that rate of fire.

The problem with this is that it is just too much work for a developer of turn based 4X games to implement. In fact i have only seen it implemented on a few top notch RTS games. But since I have seen it, I know it can be done

 

I see, a very refined RTS mechanic with aspects of WEGO tbs.
This would work if the scale of the battles stays manageable. (dozens not hundreds or thousands)

 

Like in The Last Federation (http://store.steampowered.com/app/273070/ )?

 

Thanks for the link.
Not really that thrilled with what I saw. (combat reminds me of strange adventures in infinite space), cute but the flavor seems off for a Moo2 sucessor

 

no RTS element please.