The implementation of the espionage system started today. As for what we have in mind for it, I'll say that it is linked with the leaders system Feel free to post any thoughts you may have about espionage in 4X games, your likings and dislikings below Thanks!
I love the idea of using the leaders for espionage, it instantly brings to mind this. After all, weren’t Han, luke, and leia, not only leaders, but also espionage agents at times? As to the actual question, my main concern is the activities that will be allowed and more importantly, the damage a player can receive from the AI. For example, the player would love to be able to take down a star base by espionage prior to an attack, but think how that same player would feel if his/her own star base were destroyed in the same manner, it goes back to our old discussion about not hurting the player “directly” This will require some careful thought and balance Intelligence missions and counter-intelligence are the safest, Assassinations or conversions of leaders get riskier Destruction of facilities/ships through sabotage even riskier Etc. The player will certainly want to engage in these activities and more, but I wonder, how will the player feel when on the receiving end of these actions?
For sure. All three went to Endor in a clear sabotage mission. It's exactly this kind of thing we want to do here. Totally agree. For the espionage system to be fun it will need to be balanced, and fair. The crucial thing is that the player is given options to counter espionage attempts, in order to avoid feelings of frustration, grind or helplessness. Agreed. The key is for the system to be deep and meaningful. Actions should be infrequent but more potent. Espionage should take some investment and the availability of key assets for the job. With the right techs, buildings and leaders, the players will have another tool at their disposal to make a serious dent at another possibly stronger empire, while at the same time defend themselves against convert actions. We'll see how it goes. In the meantime, feel free to share your ideas on how to make the espionage system the best it can be, including the pitfalls you find important to be avoided.
Einen schönen guten Tag, ich denke es müssen nicht immer die ganz großen Dinge sein . Abgefangene Funksprüche könnten zum Beispiel ein Bodenschatz-vorkommen im Bereich des Gegners enthüllen . Ein gestörter Funkverkehr führt vielleicht dazu, das meine Flotte meine Befehle eine Zeit lang nicht mehr empfangen kann. Ein paar aufgehetzte Aktivisten können durch Ihre 'gut Gemeinten Aktionen ' ein Forschungslabor mehrere Züge blockieren und wichtige Forschungen verzögern sich . Wenn man das Wetter manipuliert kann das zu Missernten führen, ein manipuliertes Signalnetzwerk kann zu Forschungsanstrengungen führen, welche keine brauchbaren Ergebnisse aufweisen, eine von Spionen geschaffene VR Welt macht die Bewohner einer Welt süchtig und hält Sie davon ab den normalen Alltag zu erleben- - Ich hoffe habe nicht so weit weg vom Thema geantwortet.
Agreed, it doesn't have to be only about the big things (e.g. invasions, tech stealing), although those tend to be the more dramatic, and usually the ones captured by a game. Thanks for your suggestions, plenty of good ideas there.
Yes, you are correct, it doesn’t always have to be the big things. I really like your idea about jamming communications and immobilizing a ship or even a fleet for a number of turns. This is a good example of espionage that wouldn’t directly hurt the player if the AI engaged in it. Another good idea is sabotaging research, quite tolerable for the player as well.
Noch mal einen schönen guten Tag es ist ein wenig schade, das so wenige vielleicht auch spätere Nutzer die Gelegenheit wahrnehmen, um Ihre Vorstellungen zu kommunizieren. Mir sind hingegen noch 1 - 2 Sachen eingefallen. Im ersten Fall geht es um ein friedliches Szenario. ein normaler Spion bekommt den Auftrag eine Karte des Sektors unseres Konkurrenten zu stehlen. Wir produzieren jetzt schon mal 3-4 Vorposten-schiffe. Haben wir dann die Karte ,legt unser Meisterspion (Ich nenne Ihn den Geologen) getarnt im Spionageschiff los und sieht sich nach unbesetzten, lohnenswerten Neutronen- und Dunkelsternen usw. um. (Der Geologe kann nur Ressorcenvorkommen analysieren) Während dessen fliegen unsere Vorposten-schiffe zur Grenze. Ein Schürfabkommen im Reich des Mitbewerbers gibt das Startsignal zur Ausbeutung der Vorkommen. Sollten sich jetzt die Beziehungen verschlechtern gibt man als Geschenk von 10 Minen 4 zurück mit einer Entschädigungszahlung von 10% pro Jahr -ist man dann nicht nett? Wisst Ihr genau wo Ihr Eure Gouverneure eingesetzt habt ? Wenn meine Bioplast- Agentenroboter erst einmal los legen, dann habt Ihr vielleicht gleich 3 oder 4 mal den selben Gouverneur. Der Typ ist auf Sirius beschäftigt also Abwehrkräfte los (dauert 1-2 Runden) verhaftet den Rest.Oh ihr konntet nur einen verhaften , der Rest ist weg und mit Ihnen Kultur- Forschungspunkte und Geldmittel von 2 Runden und der verhaftete war der echte -oh je wie ich das wohl wieder gut mache ? Manche Sience Fiction Sereien verwenden Roboter einem Anteil an organischem Gewebe um sich besser ihrer Umwelt anpassen zu können, man bezeichnet es als Bioplasma. Agenten haben Bioplasma -Masken erfunden, die die nicht nur das Gesicht einer Persönlichkeit bis ins kleinste nachbilden, sondern auch deren Mimik korrekt darstellen. Bis zum nächsten mal.
Thanks for your suggestions. Map sector info stealing is a nice idea for a spy mission. We'll see what we can do. If not for now we'll consider it for a later improvement. Bioplasma masks, interesting
Espionage… here’s some thoughts. Personally, in games that feature espionage, I usually devote all my efforts to counter-intelligence. This basically means that I attempt to stop the AI from executing any efforts against me, rarely do I use espionage as an offensive weapon. Going back to MoO2, it sometimes annoyed me having one of my hard earned techs being stolen, or worse than that, getting a message that one of my buildings was blown up. I feel the system suffered there from being either too powerful or too ineffective depending on how much effort I put into it. On the other hand, we all know that if ISG doesn’t include some form of espionage, it will be seen as a negative factor, one that will be focused on beyond reason and beaten to death. Perhaps then a good solution is to focus more on the mission aspect of the whole thing, make it truly interesting. Star Wars Rebellion comes to mind for good missions, some were straight espionage/sabotage and others focused more on the diplomacy side of things, (change a colony’s happiness and favorability towards one faction or the other). I don’t think ISG will be able to entirely avoid ‘standard fare” type of missions, (steal a tech, sabotage a building etc.), but I do think it can be presented in a fun way, and one far less generic than stacking a bunch of spies in some column. I believe Adam already has an excellent idea of how missions should scale in complexity and cost. As for the actual missions themselves, here are some basics. Intel Reveal enemy strength (total number of ships) Reveal order of Battle (actual fleet disposition and deployment) Reveal colony info (buildings on targeted colony) Etc. Sabotage Sabotage missions could have intel missions as prerequisites, for example, you shouldn’t be allowed to sabotage a star-base, unless you first reveal that base’s existence with an intel mission. In other words, they would be the next logical step up. Sprinkle in some standard fare such as tech stealing, assassinations, etc. they are a must And top the whole thing off with some diplomacy type of missions, incite rebellion/unrest, Influence enemy leader, and all that good stuff. Do this, and tie into actual leaders and characters in-game (as planned)… and it should be quite fun
Thoughts: If you want to implement it, you should have to have an intel HQ, where you can get recruits from. Also another thing comes to mind, they need to have a certain level to do espionage stuff. I like the Civ model as you spy level up he is able to do more "damage/spy stuff/counter intelligence". I like most of the suggestions Konstatine is pointing out. I agree reveal Colony info is one aspect. But the hard balance is not over complicating things in the game.
We're aware of the need to make spy defense viable for people that are more keen in protecting themselves from it than using it as another offensive tool in the toolbox. So, there wil lbe ways to delay and even thwart enemy spying completely, with the right choice of techs, buildings and race perks. There's nothing worse than to feel hopeless while your rivals steal techs from you left and right, so we've got you covered here. Yes, we're going to offer espionage through a series of missions that your spy leaders and their special forces (abstracted) will perform. Star Wars Rebellion was one of the inspirations for the espionage design. So, espionage will be more focused and definitely not just about how many spies you can crank out. We're also designing the system to be more transparent and involved, and less about random occurences out of your control (RNG). Yes, missions are going to be more or less along those lines. There's passive intel gathering, to reveal enemy fleets and colony info. There will also be sabotage missions that should be more focused and fun and not just be about destroying a random factory somewhere. Tech stealing is a must and we'll also let you influence your rival's leaders. More missions can be implemented later, but for now that will probably be it. The idea was for the espionage design to translate into focused, transparent and fun gameplay that will let you make interesting decisions rather than just crank out spies and let it all be decided by the random generator. The system will tie into the game's leaders system with characters with special spy skills. The design was crafted in a way to avoid unnecessary busy work, repetitive actions or feelings of frustration or guess work. Soon, we'll see if it will work. It rarely does at first, and we count with your support to help us make it better.
Check The building is even called Intelligence Headquarters, and it will let you level up spy leaders or get new spy leaders that will appear if none are available or all are already expert. And check again! Spy leaders will be allowed to do more things on the higher skill levels. For example, a basic saboteur leader will only be able to sabotage tier 1 military installations and star bases, while an expert saboteur will be able to destroy any military installation, star fortresses and even Titan starships. Agreed. There's only so much you should allow to be done and known, so not to complicate things, as you say. We'll go in small, incremental and sure steps, in order to have the most fun espionage system possible. Espionage in ISG is there to give you tools and alternative ways to accomplish your goals, being it diplomatically, economically or on warfare. The idea is that by choosing the right techs, buildings, leaders, leader level ups and race perks, you should be able to play the espionage game more, and have a good chance to make a dent at your rivals even if you're not a big economic powerhouse. Oh, and did I mention framing?
Liebe Diskussionsteilnehmer ! Ich finde 90% des oben gesagten sinnvoll und freue mich darauf das Ganze in Aktion zu sehen. Vor allen Dingen finde ich die Aussage gut das der Spielspaß im Vordergrund stehen sollte . Beim Lesen einiger älterer Beiträge hatte ich schon Angst bekommen das es nur darum geht Strategie A gegen B zu setzen und dann mit den wenigsten Zügen zu siegen . Das kann auch Spaß machen, aber hoffentlich mehr in einem Schachspiel. Ein missonsbasiertes Spionagesystem was für eine gute Idee!!, ich bin begeistert. Es könnten ja noch zufällige Ereignisse eintreten .... Ich konnte das Ziel bis zur Wüste verfolgen,allerdings verhinderte ein Sandsturm die weitere Verfolgung ;... da war ja das Rechenzentrum wie im Befehl beschrieben , das Eindringen in das Netzwerk war kinderleicht, das Ergebnis ließ mich jedoch Erstaunen: keine Informationen über Militär ,Wirtschaft oder Geheime Anlagen sondern, ein Rechner der nur eingesetzt wird,um zwei sich ausschließende philosophische Theorien über die zukünftige Weltanschauung der hiesigen Bevölkerung zu prüfen...- Ich denke das Spiel auf einen guten Weg interessant zu werden.
I like the ideas you propose! I think it would be quite a lot of fun if some random outcomes are included to the missions. Your examples about the sandstorm, or better yet the computer researching philosophical theories had me smiling
Espionage-related events that add some uncertainty to the outcome is certainly something we can explore down the road. However, and as always, it needs to be balanced so that it doesn't run away from the player's control and expectations too much. After all, the espionage mission was going to serve a critical goal. Having it thwarted due to some random event can be frustrating. There are ways to go around those problems, of course.
-und es ist sicherlich richtig, grundsätzlich sollte schon das rauskommen was der Spieler erwartet ,aber bei Berufsanfängern und überhaupt besteht immer ein Risiko, irgendwo ein paar Ereignisse (vielleicht 7 bis 10 %) und ein kleines Lächeln sind sicherlich auch in einem Strategie-spiel erlaubt, manchmal tröstet sogar eine abgefahrene Begründung den Spieler. Da Agenten offensichtlich Aufsteigen können , würden Sie auf diese Weise Erfahrung sammeln.
Agreed. In the right doses, risk and uncertainty can be fun, especially if your spies are beginners. Unexpected outcomes are welcome, as long as the player has a say, and can take something out of the situation, then I'm all for it.
No real life "spy missions" are guaranteed success, nasty things happen sometimes and the outcome can be anything from a wash to a catastrophic failure... but your making a game, you worry about how the player will react emotionally, fair enough. On the other hand, any system which just guarantees good results all the time... would be boring. This is why I really like where Wanderer is going with this, a chance of mission failure, presented in a slightly amusing fashion. It isn't so much random outcomes, it's a failed mission presented in fun manner, at least that's what I'm getting from it. So, unless you set the game up in such a way that espionage missions will always succeed, you may be well served in exploring that approach, it would be fresh.
Liebe Diskussionsrunde ich denke wir haben heute viel erreicht, ein Entwickler und ein Moderator welche den Spielspaß über das Geldverdienen und alt eingefahrene Gleise legen gibt es selten und haben mich tief beeindruckt. Für heute muss ich mich leider verabschieden und werde erst am Montag wieder mit diskutieren können.Für die anstehenden Entscheidungen: ab wann sind Missionen und Ereignisse langweilig dürfen sie sich wiederholen und wie viel Ausgänge sind dann gewünscht 1,2,3 oder sogar 4, das sind keine einfachen Fragen und ich wünsche Ihnen, das Sie den Geschmack der Spieler treffen mögen . Das geht natürlich leichter wenn möglichst viele Ihre Meinung sagen.
